geo57
Member
i'm looking for a 45 \ 70 load using a rem. 405 gr. jfn and IMR 3031 . i want about 1500 fps from my 22" barrel. does anyone have 1st hand experiece using this recipe? thanks
45 \ 70 and 3031 anyone?
- Thread starter geo57
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Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Just recently began loading .45-70 again.
I was given a Marlin 1895GS Guide Gun for my birthday and am enjoying working up loads for it.
Please note: There are at least three separate and distinct loading levels for .45-70. They are listed in this string:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26167&highlight=Guide+Gun
Herewith parts of that thread:
- - - - - - - - - -
A friend loaned me his copy of Ken Waters' Pet Loads, along with his .45-70 dies. Waters classifies his loads as light (Trapdoor Springfields, both original and replicas,) medium (1886 Winchesters, Remington Rolling Blocks and that sort,) and heavy (Siamese Mauser conversions, Ruger Single Shots, and the Marlin 1895.)
One of the all-around BEST powders for 400 to 405 gr. .45-70 bullets is IMR 3031. I've been working up from 50 gr. 3031 with the Speer 400 JSP and results thus far are quite promising.
In fairness, this excellent book is a compendium of magazine articles written over the past thirty years or so. For the old ones, he's usually written an update or afterword. As to the .45-70, he does show a brief section for "Superheavy" loads, which specifically cautions against use in the Marlin. Otherwise, he considers the Marlin right on up there in strength. I s'pose this might be considered Waters using FOUR levels of loads. BTW - - the load I gave is at starting level for type 3 rifles - - - It goes on up a few grains in the Waters book.
This is probably a good time to insert a customized, standard, disclaimer about - - - -
CAUTION: Certain loads discussed in this thread are or may be well above published loads for the .45-70 Government cartridge. It has become popular in recent years to list multiple loading levels for this fine old cartridge. If loads intended for modern, strong rifles are used in Trapdoor Springfields, or possibly any antique rifle, the rifle will almost certainly be damaged or destroyed, with possible serious injury or worse to the shooter. Those contemplating use of ANY load discussed in this forum are strongly encouraged to check second and third sources for verification. Loading data posted here are used AT YOUR OWN RISK, and neither ownership, administration, nor staff of The High Road assume any responsibility for damage or injuries to any person or equipment.
-- - - - - - - - - - -
I had earlier posed a similar question at - - -
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=289800#post289800
I've shot the rifle some since the above and have a few observations. I mounted my Leupold M8 Scout Scope on my Guide Gun, just 'cause a friend gave me the Ashley Outdoors (Now XO brand, I believe) mount for it. I can't recommend it highly enough. Easy to mount, sturdy, handy as pockets on a shirt. I have the AO ghost ring sights, and I believe this is the proper setup for a .45-70 of this type. I wanted a scope sight to remove most of the error built into my rapidly aging eyes, so I could do some meaningful load development. Now, though, I fear I'm becoming addicted to that durn glass!
I've been amazed at the accuracy shown by the Speer 400 JSP. I started at 50 gr, and it was good. Went up to 52, and it just got better. I'd have been pretty satisfied with two inch groups at 100, but I've gotten a couple of one to 1-1/4 inch groups. Results are very nearly as good with a few Remington 405 JSP I was given. I have not chronographed ANY of these loads. Time enough for that when I settle on a good, accurate load. Then I'll simply adjust my sights accordingly.
I've also tried some cast lead--Nominal 405, but really at under 400, with 38.5 gr. of 3031 were in the two to 2-1/2 inch range. My rifle just doesn't like the nominal 350 LFP, actually at about 335 gr. Maybe with a different powder - - Still working on it.
geo57 - - Please don't use these loads in anything weaker than the type 3 (Heavy) rifles. You don't name your rifle, but I hope it is a Marlin or a Ruger. You can have LOTS of fun with the others, but use lighter loads, please.
Have lots of fun, and keep us informed of your progress, huh?
Best,
Johnny
I was given a Marlin 1895GS Guide Gun for my birthday and am enjoying working up loads for it.
Please note: There are at least three separate and distinct loading levels for .45-70. They are listed in this string:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26167&highlight=Guide+Gun
Herewith parts of that thread:
- - - - - - - - - -
A friend loaned me his copy of Ken Waters' Pet Loads, along with his .45-70 dies. Waters classifies his loads as light (Trapdoor Springfields, both original and replicas,) medium (1886 Winchesters, Remington Rolling Blocks and that sort,) and heavy (Siamese Mauser conversions, Ruger Single Shots, and the Marlin 1895.)
One of the all-around BEST powders for 400 to 405 gr. .45-70 bullets is IMR 3031. I've been working up from 50 gr. 3031 with the Speer 400 JSP and results thus far are quite promising.
In fairness, this excellent book is a compendium of magazine articles written over the past thirty years or so. For the old ones, he's usually written an update or afterword. As to the .45-70, he does show a brief section for "Superheavy" loads, which specifically cautions against use in the Marlin. Otherwise, he considers the Marlin right on up there in strength. I s'pose this might be considered Waters using FOUR levels of loads. BTW - - the load I gave is at starting level for type 3 rifles - - - It goes on up a few grains in the Waters book.
This is probably a good time to insert a customized, standard, disclaimer about - - - -
CAUTION: Certain loads discussed in this thread are or may be well above published loads for the .45-70 Government cartridge. It has become popular in recent years to list multiple loading levels for this fine old cartridge. If loads intended for modern, strong rifles are used in Trapdoor Springfields, or possibly any antique rifle, the rifle will almost certainly be damaged or destroyed, with possible serious injury or worse to the shooter. Those contemplating use of ANY load discussed in this forum are strongly encouraged to check second and third sources for verification. Loading data posted here are used AT YOUR OWN RISK, and neither ownership, administration, nor staff of The High Road assume any responsibility for damage or injuries to any person or equipment.
-- - - - - - - - - - -
I had earlier posed a similar question at - - -
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=289800#post289800
I've shot the rifle some since the above and have a few observations. I mounted my Leupold M8 Scout Scope on my Guide Gun, just 'cause a friend gave me the Ashley Outdoors (Now XO brand, I believe) mount for it. I can't recommend it highly enough. Easy to mount, sturdy, handy as pockets on a shirt. I have the AO ghost ring sights, and I believe this is the proper setup for a .45-70 of this type. I wanted a scope sight to remove most of the error built into my rapidly aging eyes, so I could do some meaningful load development. Now, though, I fear I'm becoming addicted to that durn glass!
I've been amazed at the accuracy shown by the Speer 400 JSP. I started at 50 gr, and it was good. Went up to 52, and it just got better. I'd have been pretty satisfied with two inch groups at 100, but I've gotten a couple of one to 1-1/4 inch groups. Results are very nearly as good with a few Remington 405 JSP I was given. I have not chronographed ANY of these loads. Time enough for that when I settle on a good, accurate load. Then I'll simply adjust my sights accordingly.
I've also tried some cast lead--Nominal 405, but really at under 400, with 38.5 gr. of 3031 were in the two to 2-1/2 inch range. My rifle just doesn't like the nominal 350 LFP, actually at about 335 gr. Maybe with a different powder - - Still working on it.
geo57 - - Please don't use these loads in anything weaker than the type 3 (Heavy) rifles. You don't name your rifle, but I hope it is a Marlin or a Ruger. You can have LOTS of fun with the others, but use lighter loads, please.
Have lots of fun, and keep us informed of your progress, huh?
Best,
Johnny
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I had a lot of trouble with 3031, unfortunately.
I ran IMR3031 behind 405gr gas-checked cast bullets, and darned if I didn't leave a ton of unburned powder in the bore and on the concrete in front of the bench. Were I more frugal, I could've swept it up and reloaded it. Magnum primers didn't help a whole lot, either. When I switched to jacketed 405gr bullets, there was less of the stuff left, but still there. I should mention this was in my 22" Ruger #1S. I went with Reloder #7, and voila'!
I ran IMR3031 behind 405gr gas-checked cast bullets, and darned if I didn't leave a ton of unburned powder in the bore and on the concrete in front of the bench. Were I more frugal, I could've swept it up and reloaded it. Magnum primers didn't help a whole lot, either. When I switched to jacketed 405gr bullets, there was less of the stuff left, but still there. I should mention this was in my 22" Ruger #1S. I went with Reloder #7, and voila'!
cdbeaver
Member
Unburned powder
I tried up to 34 grains of 3031 behind a 340-grain Lee cast bullet in my .45-70 NEF Handigun.
It left the bore pretty full of unburned powder and didn't shoot very accurately, either.
Hodgdon 4198, on the other hand, works superbly in that rifle and caliber, both with cast and metal-clad bullets.
I get the impression that faster burning powders are better than medium to slow-burners with the fat old .45-70.
I tried up to 34 grains of 3031 behind a 340-grain Lee cast bullet in my .45-70 NEF Handigun.
It left the bore pretty full of unburned powder and didn't shoot very accurately, either.
Hodgdon 4198, on the other hand, works superbly in that rifle and caliber, both with cast and metal-clad bullets.
I get the impression that faster burning powders are better than medium to slow-burners with the fat old .45-70.
Pumpkinheaver
Member
Don't be afraid to try 4198 in your rifle, it's my all time favorite 45-70 powder.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Unburned powder, huh?
Gee, I hadn't noticed any problem with this in my Guide Gun. Maybe I was just so charmed with the accuracy shown with 400 Speer and 405 Rem JSPs that I wasn't paying proper attention.
I have been using a really strong crimp on my loads. Perhaps either that, or the short barrel of my rifle have something to do with my performance with 3031???
Believe I have some 4198 on the shelf - - Better give it a try.
Waters shows some very satisfactory results with H-4895 powder. I have none of that in stock, but do have some IMR 4895. Any idea as to the interchangablility of the two?
I've done a lot of reading, but I'm still feeling my way here, and appreciate the exchange of ideas.
Best,
Johnny
PS: geo57 - - Sir, it was not my intent to hijack your thread. I began trying to at least partially answer your question, and it kind of got off on a slight tangent. I apologize for this. Does ANY of the above do you any good? What kind of rifle are you using? Please let us know your progress as you have time.
JPG
Gee, I hadn't noticed any problem with this in my Guide Gun. Maybe I was just so charmed with the accuracy shown with 400 Speer and 405 Rem JSPs that I wasn't paying proper attention.
I have been using a really strong crimp on my loads. Perhaps either that, or the short barrel of my rifle have something to do with my performance with 3031???
Believe I have some 4198 on the shelf - - Better give it a try.
Waters shows some very satisfactory results with H-4895 powder. I have none of that in stock, but do have some IMR 4895. Any idea as to the interchangablility of the two?
I've done a lot of reading, but I'm still feeling my way here, and appreciate the exchange of ideas.
Best,
Johnny
PS: geo57 - - Sir, it was not my intent to hijack your thread. I began trying to at least partially answer your question, and it kind of got off on a slight tangent. I apologize for this. Does ANY of the above do you any good? What kind of rifle are you using? Please let us know your progress as you have time.
JPG
EchoSixMike
Member
I'm using 40gns of IMR-3031 and a cast 405gn bullet from my 1886 with 26" barrel and getting 1500fps and the load is very tame. Accuracy is excellent, and unburned powder is a minor issue, gone after one patch during cleaning. S/F...Ken M
Johnny, I'm not saying 3031 won't work in the .45-70...
It just didn't work too well in my 22" Ruger #1S, behind cast or jacketed bullets. I went all the way up to 50 grains of the stuff behind a Speer 405gr JSP, and it still filled the bore with those pretty extruded grains. Matter of fact, 60 grains of FFg Goex behind the cast bullets left less residue in the bore, and led me to develop my favorite duplex blackpowder loads, with 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main FFg charge gets drop-tubed into the case.
That 3031 load I worked with was using a fairly stout Lee Factory crimp, in Remington nickel-plated brass, with Federal 215 magnum primers.
Accurate Arms XMP-5744 didn't fare much better, and it supposedly was THE cast bullet powder for the .45-70.
That's why I settled on Reloder 7 as the powder of choice. It got rave reviews from the Marlin Guide Gun folks, and gave me a clean-burning 2000 fps using Beartooth 405's.
When my 32" barrel Rolling Block Creedmoor gets finished, I may give IMR3031 and XMP-5744 another try, the extra 10" of burn time may be all it needs to stay clean.
It just didn't work too well in my 22" Ruger #1S, behind cast or jacketed bullets. I went all the way up to 50 grains of the stuff behind a Speer 405gr JSP, and it still filled the bore with those pretty extruded grains. Matter of fact, 60 grains of FFg Goex behind the cast bullets left less residue in the bore, and led me to develop my favorite duplex blackpowder loads, with 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main FFg charge gets drop-tubed into the case.
That 3031 load I worked with was using a fairly stout Lee Factory crimp, in Remington nickel-plated brass, with Federal 215 magnum primers.
Accurate Arms XMP-5744 didn't fare much better, and it supposedly was THE cast bullet powder for the .45-70.
That's why I settled on Reloder 7 as the powder of choice. It got rave reviews from the Marlin Guide Gun folks, and gave me a clean-burning 2000 fps using Beartooth 405's.
When my 32" barrel Rolling Block Creedmoor gets finished, I may give IMR3031 and XMP-5744 another try, the extra 10" of burn time may be all it needs to stay clean.
OP
OP
geo57
Member
johnny...no problem at all. we are all here to share info. in my 300 gr. jhp deer loads, i too get some unburned powder from 3031. as my rifle is an NEF handi rifle, i simply blow out what little there is after each shot from the breech end. accuracy however is so good , it;s a minor inconveinence. this 405 gr. load will hopefully be my buffalo load for a fall hunt in kansas.
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