45-70 bullet question

[coondogger]

I have a recipe from Lyman's manual which calls for a 405 gr bullet and 31.5 gr of IMR4198; a starting load. At first I couldn't find the recommended #457193 (a cast lead FN). But I was able to get some 405 gr cast bullets in a WLN with gas checks on them. However, the WLN, seems to seat 0.110 deeper than does the #457193. Does this seem like a safe and reasonable substitution?

 

[memtb]

As 4198 is “not” one of the powders affected by reducing the load density, I’d say back off just a little from suggested starting load (I probably wouldn’t) and work up from there! memtb

 

[Pat Riot]

I agree with @memtb

This is the load data from Hodgdon for that powder for a Trapdoor load with a 405 grain lead bullet. Maybe use this data?
Found here: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54

 

[AJC1]

That case is huuuuuge. With a starting load I would not reduce at all.

 

[ericuda]

What gun.

 

[Charlie98]

30grn IMR4198 is my load, with a 405grn cast bullet. I've actually reduced down to 25grns without problems Although IMR4198 is a 'fast' rifle powder, you are no where near any sort of danger zone with small variations in bullet seat depth on a starting load... the .45-70 case being quite generous in internal volume negating differences like that.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I’m loading 42g of 4198 for my 405gn hard cast. It hurts to shoot. Shoot 12 and I’m done

 

[Mark_Mark]

 

[Slamfire]

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.

You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.

45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                       

29-Apr-04                 T = 80 °F    

Ave Vel =                1294                                                                            
Std Dev =                14                                                                              
ES =                        40                                                                               
Low =                      1274                                                                            
High =                     1314                                                                            
N =                          15                                                                              

Group Size Very . good

405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                      
24-Mar-04  T = 70 °F

Ave Vel =                1284                                                                            
Std Dev =                23                                                                              
ES =                        80                                                                               
Low =                      1263                                                                            
High =                     1343                                                                            
N =                          12                                                                              


405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                      
15-Apr-05    T = 75 °F

Ave Vel =                1363                                                                            
Std Dev =                25                                                                              
ES =                        97                                                                               
Low =                      1298                                                                            
High =                     1395                                                                            
N =                          20                                                                              


Group Size good offhand at 100 yards

Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel
Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"

29 May 2010 T = 89 °F

Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6

 

[Shak3s1977]

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.


View attachment 1000835

I switched to IMR 4198 due to suggestions from here. I now prefer it over 5744, as 5744 left powder zombie kernels that fall down in my 1895 action. Makes it gritty to work the lever after a while.

 

[Riomouse911]

IMR 4198 and 3031 are my go-to’s and have been so since I started reloading in the mid 1990’s. The loads I’ve run through my 1895’s with these powders and bullets from 260 to 450 grains have been accurate and reliable.

I may give 5744 a try once I’m done with my current stash.

Stay safe.

 

[Soonerpesek]

5744 left powder zombie kernels that fall down in my 1895 action

Use a little bigger charge, and put a healthy crimp on 'er.
That'll let all the powder burn....

 

[BigBore44]

I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases.

Well let me introduce myself. I’m BigBore44. And I use H-4895, and Varget for low pressure loads for my Sharps. And only BP for my original trapdoors. But I suppose I should try AA5744.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Well let me introduce myself. I’m BigBore44. And I use H-4895, and Varget for low pressure loads for my Sharps. And only BP for my original trapdoors. But I suppose I should try AA5744.

Sup .44BigBore why they call you .44?

 

[BigBore44]

Sup .44BigBore why they call you .44?

Well, 44 rhymed. Being a famous poet, I thought it was a better fit. But being a truthful soul, I’m completely full of sh….

BigBore45 was already taken.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Well, 44 rhymed. Being a famous poet, I thought it was better fit. But being a truthful soul, I’m completely full of sh….

BigBore45 was already taken.

NICE! I named myself after my Wifi name!

 

[Charlie98]

But I suppose I should try AA5744.

AA5744 is not a bad powder, and particularly for something like the .45-70, but I've not found it to be All That and a bag of chips. It works almost exactly like IMR (or H) 4198, except it doesn't burn as clean (in my experience.) It takes a wee bit less powder to achieve the same velocities as the 4198's, but costs a little more (which is subjective, these days.) Personally, you can't go wrong with either. I did a side-by-side comparo when I got my 1885... I did not find any accuracy differences, or other behavior that would make me recommend it over IMR4198, but I still recommend it as 'either or' next to the 4198's.

 

[whughett]

Well, 44 rhymed. Being a famous poet, I thought it was a better fit. But being a truthful soul, I’m completely full of sh….

BigBore45 was already taken.

The quip of the week.....

 

[Slamfire]

Well let me introduce myself. I’m BigBore44. And I use H-4895, and Varget for low pressure loads for my Sharps. And only BP for my original trapdoors. But I suppose I should try AA5744.

Accurate Arms 5744 was "designed" for this application, it is bulky and as you can see with my data, provides excellent standard deviations and extreme spreads at black powder appropriate velocities.

I tried IMR 4895 with cast bullets in other cases, the results were not as good. IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495 is an excellent 223 and 308 Win powder, shoots outstandingly in my 30-06 Garands and bolt guns, but, it is not a bulky powder designed for low pressure applications.

 

[Charlie98]

Accurate Arms 5744 was "designed" for this application, it is bulky and as you can see with my data, provides excellent standard deviations and extreme spreads at black powder appropriate velocities.

I tried IMR 4895 with cast bullets in other cases, the results were not as good. IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495 is an excellent 223 and 308 Win powder, shoots outstandingly in my 30-06 Garands and bolt guns, but, it is not a bulky powder designed for low pressure applications.

It's interesting... There is a BIG jump in powders you have there... from AA5744... all the way to IMR4895. I'll go you one better... I've even loaded IMR4064 in the .45-70. Sure, slower powders pushed velocities up, but there was that pesky recoil thing. There is IMR3031... which isn't a bad powder for the .45-70, particularly for hunting applications, but as you say... does not provide good case fill for lower velocity applications, among other things. I happen to use IMR3031 with cast in my .348WCF loads, where I've had good success, even vs IMR4198, but I use IMR4198 everywhere else... that is .308 (cast,) .30-30, and .45-70. YMMV, need not be present to win.