45-70 load and odd recoil.

[buck460XVR]

For a batch of ammo to have the variance you are stating, I doubt very much if it's the case length. If the ammo is loaded to the same OAL, your case capacity will be the same, regardless of brass length. If cases are being buckled, I doubt they would chamber readily. I would suspect either your scale or the technique you are using to charge the cases.

If you are dropping the propellant into the case then dumping it on to the scale pan are you SURE that all of it is dumping out each time?? Some might be staying inside the brass this time you are loading and not when you loaded previously.

This was my first thought when I read the procedure. That or the scale itself. Is it a beam or digital?

Weigh your loaded rounds. If you find any that are signifigantly heavier you might find your problem.

Never found this to be a useful way to find overcharged cases. Just to much variance in case weights, especially if the OP thinks he has cases of various lengths. This would work for obvious overcharges in small capacity cases, but I would be leery of a large capacity case like 45-70.

If one is using a Lead-Sled properly, I don't know how you would perceive a significant amount of increase in recoil. Kinda the reason behind them. Still, the difference of 5" or more in POI is significant. I don't load for 45-70 in a lever, but looking at published recipes for 45-70 in a 1895 Marlin, I see a really wide range of charge rates for it with IMR4198 with a 300 grainer. Many of the listed max charges are less than the OP's load, while Hodgdon shows a starting load above it. The great difference in recoil along with the huge amount of difference in POI would make me leave that box of ammo at home till I could pull it. I would either use a different gun or use other ammo I trusted.

 

[Charlie98]

The ones that recoiled roughly wouldn't even hit the 10'' shoot N see target.

well... there’s your answer.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Whatever is going on, I agree, that gun should stay at home until it is resolved.

 

[Demi-human]

If the ammo is loaded to the same OAL, your case capacity will be the same, regardless of brass length.

True. However, if the crimp opens into the lead instead of the chamber there is less bore diameter for the remaining part of the bullet to pass through.

Trying to put a .458 sized bullet through a hole that is eleven thousandths smaller all around is not easy, even if it’s only half the bullet.



With half of a rather short bullet squished through a restriction and then shot at the resulting elevated pressure, I am amazed you even hit the berm...

If that is in fact the case with these, cases.

Regardless, I wish you good luck.

 

[Axis II]

Broken scope? Hopefully you don't wound a deer tomorrow.

the last few shots all hit dead center bull. The scope even tracked properly when I was moving the turrets.

 

[Axis II]

Here is what I plan on doing. I sent the last set of rounds from the opposite side of the 55rd box and those shot fine, all hitting bull or 1'' from it. I have a 44mag rifle as a backup and will be hunting the morning till 11am and then my buddy is taking a nap till 2pm in which we will head out again. In this nap time I will be pulling the rounds and starting over and hitting the range to confirm.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Had a couple broke scopes over the years that would do that. Seems it's fine for a few shots then goes crazy.

Who knows. Maybe you got powders mixed in the wrong containers? Using 350gr bullets when you think they are 300's? Your scale was not set correctly? Without being there it's hard to say.

Need to pull 'em and figure it out.

 

[Axis II]

For a batch of ammo to have the variance you are stating, I doubt very much if it's the case length. If the ammo is loaded to the same OAL, your case capacity will be the same, regardless of brass length. If cases are being buckled, I doubt they would chamber readily. I would suspect either your scale or the technique you are using to charge the cases.



This was my first thought when I read the procedure. That or the scale itself. Is it a beam or digital?



Never found this to be a useful way to find overcharged cases. Just to much variance in case weights, especially if the OP thinks he has cases of various lengths. This would work for obvious overcharges in small capacity cases, but I would be leery of a large capacity case like 45-70.

If one is using a Lead-Sled properly, I don't know how you would perceive a significant amount of increase in recoil. Kinda the reason behind them. Still, the difference of 5" or more in POI is significant. I don't load for 45-70 in a lever, but looking at published recipes for 45-70 in a 1895 Marlin, I see a really wide range of charge rates for it with IMR4198 with a 300 grainer. Many of the listed max charges are less than the OP's load, while Hodgdon shows a starting load above it. The great difference in recoil along with the huge amount of difference in POI would make me leave that box of ammo at home till I could pull it. I would either use a different gun or use other ammo I trusted.

Buck,

I used Hodgdon data because pretty much everything in Hornady wouldn't group well and I also read reports I needed higher velocity to expand the bullet. I come from years of slug guns shooting 1oz lead balls and we didnt care if it opened cause its 1oz lead or 300gr sabot slugs. I am new to the rifle game and dont like deer running 100yards to die. I am using a Lyman digital scale. I am using the 44mag tomorrow morning and then using the Marlin after those rounds are confirmed or at least done over and confirmed. I moved and unpacked all my reloading stuff that hasn't been touched since probably July and confirmed the scale was on per the check weight and pan weight.

 

[Axis II]

Had a couple broke scopes over the years that would do that. Seems it's fine for a few shots then goes crazy.

Who knows. Maybe you got powders mixed in the wrong containers? Using 350gr bullets when you think they are 300's? Your scale was not set correctly? Without being there it's hard to say.

Need to pull 'em and figure it out.

Only bullets I have ever purchased were 300gr. I only use IMR 4198 for this rifle and the rest is pistol powders in the cabinet. I do have benchmark but its never been opened and H335. My scope is a Leupold vx2. I had a bushnell back lens crack from a slug gun recoil but this Leupold has never had an issue.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Get ya some 320gr CHPGC from gtbullets to try after the seasons over. That's what I'll be using tomorrow. 50.5gr Benchmark for 1850fps mv. Deadly accurate and much, much cheaper than jacketed.

http://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=61

 

[buck460XVR]

Buck,

I used Hodgdon data because pretty much everything in Hornady wouldn't group well and I also read reports I needed higher velocity to expand the bullet. I come from years of slug guns shooting 1oz lead balls and we didnt care if it opened cause its 1oz lead or 300gr sabot slugs. I am new to the rifle game and dont like deer running 100yards to die. I am using a Lyman digital scale. I am using the 44mag tomorrow morning and then using the Marlin after those rounds are confirmed or at least done over and confirmed. I moved and unpacked all my reloading stuff that hasn't been touched since probably July and confirmed the scale was on per the check weight and pan weight.

For lever actions, Speer gives a range of 39 to 43 gr of IMR4198 under it's 300 grainer. My older Hornady does not give IMR4198, but gives H4198, which does not seem interchangeable. Lyman gives 36 to 41 under a Nosler 300 grainer. Hodgdon gives the range from 53.7 to 57.2 under a Sierra 300 grainer. I wonder if bullet profile is behind this or if Hodgdon thinks the Marlins are capable of the same pressures as a Ruger #1 or model 98 action. Lyman actually states more than once, not to use cartridges giving pressure levels given by the Hodgdon recipes(39,000), in any lever gun.

You don't state what bullet you are using, so the theory about bullet profile, case capacity and differences in powder charge is not on the table. You do not give OAL, which is also critical(max of 2.550"). A proper expanding 30-06 probably is no larger than a non-expanded .458" bullet on exit, so the idea you need a bigger hole thru more expansion is lost on me. Many folks using a 45-70 use hardcast bullets which don't expand and have good success. Maybe a different bullet that expands more at lower velocities would shoot more consistently? Still, your gun and your preference. Folks should use what they are most proficient with and have the most confidence in. Would be hard for me to have confidence in any bullet from that box or even with something loaded hastily between hunts, using the same recipe, same projectiles and same loading procedure. Again, tho, not my choice.

 

[Demi-human]

I don’t think the problem is what he chooses to load, but that a chosen load that was shooting fine is no longer, regardless whose data thinks what about whatever gun.
To that, he is only a grain over Hornady’s load data for a Marlin 1895. That pressure difference could be mitigated by seating depth.

And yeah, a .45 don’t get any smaller!

I would not use the loads. I just went through this with a friend’s Seven Mag. He had some misfires, I said dump them and get a new box. He chose otherwise and missed a ten point this year. I took them down for autopsy. The pockets were so deep, I don’t know if a firing pin would hit the primer if they were set properly.

It’s a tough spot. I wish you luck again, I hope it will help.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Buck, I assume Hodgdon goes to 40,000CUP because the 444Marlin is spec'd at 44k in the exact same action.

 

[Axis II]

For lever actions, Speer gives a range of 39 to 43 gr of IMR4198 under it's 300 grainer. My older Hornady does not give IMR4198, but gives H4198, which does not seem interchangeable. Lyman gives 36 to 41 under a Nosler 300 grainer. Hodgdon gives the range from 53.7 to 57.2 under a Sierra 300 grainer. I wonder if bullet profile is behind this or if Hodgdon thinks the Marlins are capable of the same pressures as a Ruger #1 or model 98 action. Lyman actually states more than once, not to use cartridges giving pressure levels given by the Hodgdon recipes(39,000), in any lever gun.

You don't state what bullet you are using, so the theory about bullet profile, case capacity and differences in powder charge is not on the table. You do not give OAL, which is also critical(max of 2.550"). A proper expanding 30-06 probably is no larger than a non-expanded .458" bullet on exit, so the idea you need a bigger hole thru more expansion is lost on me. Many folks using a 45-70 use hardcast bullets which don't expand and have good success. Maybe a different bullet that expands more at lower velocities would shoot more consistently? Still, your gun and your preference. Folks should use what they are most proficient with and have the most confidence in. Would be hard for me to have confidence in any bullet from that box or even with something loaded hastily between hunts, using the same recipe, same projectiles and same loading procedure. Again, tho, not my choice.

I plan on pulling everything and starting over and then heading to the range to test. 44.6 shoots this group but 52.6 shoots tighter. I'm going to pull everything, load 44.6, test them out and hunt. We only get a week to rifle hunt, so I kind of have to deal with the hand dealt. Hey, at least I am redoing them and testing them before hunting again.

I seated everything with Hornady custom dies to 2.550. I crimped with about 1.5 turn or so and had a handful crush when crimped. I measured them and they are at max case lenght while the others are at trim length. Yeah, I shouldn't have loaded that late and paid better attention. Between moving, GF, remodeling a house, work and trying to bow hunt I had no time to do any of this.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I use Hornady 45-70 dies and 1.5 turns of crimp is way too much.

Usually 1/8th turn is good. 3/16th turn is moderate and 1/4th turn is heavy.

 

[Axis II]

I use Hornady 45-70 dies and 1.5 turns of crimp is way too much.

Usually 1/8th turn is good. 3/16th turn is moderate and 1/4th turn is heavy.

That should be 1-1.5. I guess 1 turn is still too much. The other 45 rounds look okay in crimp but some of them crushed it.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

One full turn would ruin every piece of brass I own. I wouldn't even think of attempting one full turn.

Think you may have found the problem.

Do they come out of the seating die with ease or do they stick and you have to bang on the handle upwards to get them to come out?

 

[Axis II]

One full turn would ruin every piece of brass I own. I wouldn't even think of attempting one full turn.

Think you may have found the problem.

Do they come out of the seating die with ease or do they stick and you have to bang on the handle upwards to get them to come out?

I cant remember. I seat and crimp separately.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Your loads are way too hot.
Nosler lists 51.5 IMR4198 as max with their 300gr bullet.
49.5 was their accuracy load. I suggest you back down to there and try again.

I personally use 48gr, which is still stout.
However, my go-to load is a RCBS 300gr .459” FNGC which I load over 29.5gr of #2400 for 1,650fps from an 18.5” 1895GG. VERY accurate and tolerable.

 

[Axis II]

Everything has been pulled and I loaded 5 at 44gr 5 at 48.5gr and 5 at 49gr. These shot decent for me before so I’ll test them tomorrow and whatever is accurate I’ll run it.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Did you weigh the charges from the pulled rounds?

 

[Axis II]

Did you weigh the charges from the pulled rounds?

Nope. It’s late and I’m running on a few hours sleep so hammered pulled and set me

 

[BigBore44]

Only thing I have thought about today is scale has an issue.

What kind of scale? Is it digital or pendulum? I have a Hornady digital that is inconsistent compared to my pendulum. Also, the LeverEvolution brass is shorter that normal brass. You need to make sure the depth of the cannelure location is correct to give you proper COL upon seating. The gun is not the problem.

 

[BigBore44]

Ok I see you’re using a Lyman Digital. I just don’t trust digital scales. And your crimp is too much. But that alone doesn’t account for the vast inconsistencies. If you had a load that printed one hole, why change it? You can’t get any better than that.

 

[Axis II]

What kind of scale? Is it digital or pendulum? I have a Hornady digital that is inconsistent compared to my pendulum. Also, the LeverEvolution brass is shorter that normal brass. You need to make sure the depth of the cannelure location is correct to give you proper COL upon seating. The gun is not the problem.

Lyman digital and starline and Winchester brass