45-70 Smokeless Loads.

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Austin Edwards

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
27
Location
Bandera Texas
Good Evening folks,
I picked up a 45-70 Sharps remake. Its a Taylor and co 1874 32"1&18 twist Rolling block made by armi sport.
( I know i could have bought a better rifle, but I have luck with "lower end" guns.)
Now i am doing some reloading for the rifle and it seems like there is a ton of leading happening.
I have found one decent load at 100 yards but I have to clean the rifle after about 5-7 shots for the accuracy to stay the same.

The load is as follows.
Starline Brass
42.5 grains of H4895
405 Grain FP GC .458
Winchester Primer
2.540 COL

Is there a way to reduce the leading in the barrel.?
Also I am looking to load Some
Barnes Original Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 400 Grain Semi-Spitzer Flat Base.
I cant seem to find any loads for this bullet, has anyone out there used this bullet in the "sharps" remake.
Anyone out there willing to share there knowledge with these rifles. Just looking to find a good load for hunting/range shooting at 50-150 yards.
Thanks for any and all help. Have a great evening/morning.
 
I could be wrong but I think if you are using lead bullets you are pushing them too fast. I shoot a trapdoor Springfield with 405 grain Hi Tek coated bullets from Missouri Bullet Co. over 28 grains of H4198 and have no leading at all. This load should give about 1250 FPS and is fine out to 150 yards. For hunting, I suspect that a 405 grain bullet moving at 1250 FPS will stop just about anything in North America.
 
You are getting leading with a gas check (GC) bullet? Have you chronoed this load?

A 405 gr pill moving 1250-1350 will kill anything on the planet, and will go through and through just about everything in North America. Try dropping down to about 40 gr of H4895.
 
Crest117 In the reloading books I have for the 405 grain loads the minimum powder charge is showing 30 grains, will it hurt to go less?

Sistema1927 Yes the bullets I am using are gas checked. I can tell that there is leading happening.
And I have not chronoed these loads as I do not have one.
I have read that these style rifle shoot best at a slower speed. Is there a difference in shooting copper jacketed over lead? I am still new to reloading.
 
Yes jacketed bullets do need to be treated a little differently than jacketed bullets. For example the Lyman reloading manual lists separate load data for jacketed and cast.

FD1A8D3A-A53B-4AA7-8871-4B9D59E7ABD0.jpeg

I suggest you try a faster burning powder such as 4198, Accurate 2015, or Reloader 7, and you may also need to check the bore size of your rifle. When shooting cast bullets it’s imperative that the bullet be .001” or more larger than the bore.
 
Austin Edwards said:
405 Grain FP GC .458
Click to expand...
- Who made the bullet ?
- What Diameter ?
- How Hard ?

That isn't all that High Pressure a load (15.5ksi or so)
That load/bullet/powder, unfortunately is going to dump roughly a 1/4 of the powder out the end of a 32" barrel
The BIG issue is ..... (drum roll please) is the bullet SOFT enough ? (It's got to be 30:1/BN 8-9 at that pressure) If soft, it will expand to fill the grooves. If hard -- it's skid city.

While still offering real soft as best, I suggest an absolute MAX of BN 15, cast 0.001"-0.002" oversize, and fast(er) AA5744 Powder
 
Austin, do not drop down below 35 grains of H4895. I was using 32.5 grains of H4895 with a 405 grain lead bullet before I knew better. I stuck bullets twice. After the second time I asked for advice on this forum and was directed to change powder to H4198. I tried a mild load of 28 grains and have never had a problem since. Also when I was using H4895 I would notice some unburned powder flakes in the barrel. No such problem with H4198. Hodgden says you can safely use up to 31 grains in weaker actions like the trapdoor but this would increase the velocity to the level where leading could be a problem again.
 
It sounds like either the bullet alloy is too hard (many commercial cast bullets are too hard for lower velocity loads... like in the .45-70) and/or it is undersized for your bore. Personally, I have a Pedersoli 1885 in .45-70... I load .459" bullets at around 1300fps +/- and don't have leading problems at all. Like others mentioned, I would probably try a faster powder, and get your speeds down to 1300-1500fps range once you have the proper bullet. Again, personally, I have left the slower powders like IMRs 4895 and 4064... and even 3031... behind for IMR4198 and AA5744... I get far better performance with those powders, and no leading. You are in luck, however, H4895 is one of those powders that you can safely reduce, but I still don't think it will be better than IMR4198 or AA5744.
 
I agree that there is no reason to push a 405 gr. lead bullet faster than 1200 - 1250 FPS. 1250 FPS is about the same velocity of the original black powder cartridge.

I have shot and hunted with a Pedersoli Rolling Block 45/70 for many years. Using my pet load of 35 gr. of IMR 3031 and a 405 gr. bullet sized .458” I have shot 600 yard match stages clean for sitting position using cross sticks and have shot clear though a standing Buffalo at 165 yards (measured with laser range finder). No lead in barrel and very easy to clean.
 
Lots of good advice in this thread. To summarize I think you will find your answer in one of the following

Faster powder
Bullet diameter
Bullet hardness

It might take one or all of the above. I would experiment in that order.
 
Hello everyone and thank you for the information.
Here is the specs on the lead bullets i am using.
Sold in 100 Count Box ACME Bullet Company manufactures 45/70 405 Grain FP (Flat Point) hard cast bullets. These lead cast bullets are ready for reloading as they are sized to .458 and lubed with Magma Engineering blue lube. ACME bullets are made with certified 92-6-2 lead alloy with a Brinell Hardness (BHN) of 16. All cast bullets are shipped in a unique reusable wooden box.
I have loaded these boolets for my marlin 1895 cb and have not had a problem with leading or accuracy.
With 4895 I have also noticed unburned powder.
What is the best way of mesuring my bore to insure i am using the proper boolets?
Also what is the best recommended lead bullet out there to purchase.

Thanks for all the information and help.
 
I'm loading a 405gr cast bullet from Missouri Bullets without a gas check. I get no leading at all in either a Marlin levergun or Trapdoor. I'm using either 4198 or AA5744 and keep the bullets under 1,350 fps. I have been favoring AA5744 lately but the price is a bit high for my liking.
 
What would be the best way to measure your bore diameter to find out the best bullet to load with. I did use my calipers very carefully and it measured out to .448 this dose not seem to be right?
 
Leading is caused by gas passing by the bullet sides, melting off some and depositing it in the bore. A few questions:

- how does the OP “tell” that he actually has leading? Pieces of lead on a patch? Streaks at the muzzle?

- what is the bore diameter? There is no way to help without this information. Take a soft lead fishing weight of the appropriate size and push it through a well-lubed bore, then use a micrometer to measure the widest dimension.

The load quoted is fully appropriate for the OP’s rifle. In his seminal Pet Loads work with the .45-70, Ken Waters used a charge of 42.0 grains of H-4895 for 1256 fps and good accuracy. He noted that this was a factory duplication load. No leading was noted. Going to IMR 4198 may reduce powder ash and increase accuracy, but it is not going to change leading.

There is nothing wrong with the bullets the OP is using, assuming they are of appropriate diameter. (The OP must measure them, what it says on the box may not be accurate.). This is the most common cause of poor accuracy and leading.

I shot four different .45-70s regularly with cast at Trapdoor to Marlin pressure levels, and leading almost never occurred. When it did, I did something wrong. Of course, the only “low end” rifle was a 1975-viltage H&R Sakari, and even it didn’t lead with appropriate bullets. It did have a pretty smooth bore of even dimensions, who knows about the OP’s rifle.

.
 
25-20 WCF- When i run a patch down the barrel there are small chunks of lead that come out on the patch. Also if I run a dry patch down the barrel there is small bits of lead. There is also streaks at the end of the barrel that when i thoroughly clean they are not there.
I have not measured the bore diameter yet, But I have measured 25 out of the 200 of the bullets I have and they have measured out to from 457-458.5
I have purchased both 1lb of 4198 and AA5477. I am thinking I will need to purchase .459 dia bullets.
 
Austin Edwards said:
I am thinking I will need to purchase .459 dia bullets.
Click to expand...

That's actually where I would start. Generically speaking, for a bore slugged to .458", you would start with a .459" cast bullet, etc.

As far as slugging your bore, a very soft lead bullet (think black powder ball or similar...) or fishing sinker will work, but your barrel has to be clean. Lube it up well, drive the bullet through it, mic the bullet... easy enough if you have the right tools. I don't think you need to slug it... I would just buy a box of .459" bullets and go with it.

For reference, places like Montana Bullet Works offers cast bullets sized to order, I'm sure others do as well, but I'm familiar with them because they make my .348WCF bullets... in .349"

Many will recommend casting your own... and that's great if you have the desire. I don't. I use only commercially cast bullets in about 5 different rifles and I don't have problems... but I have had to size up a bullet now and then for better performance.
 
I would definitely slug the bore with a suitable oversize dead soft lead round ball or bullet and measure it with either a mike or a really accurate dial caliper. Start it into the muzzle with a plastic mallet and clean away the lead ring, if any, and then use lengths of 3/8" dowel to tap it through to the chamber.
Who knows? The OP might have a .459" groove diameter. Measure and know, and then choose your necessary bullet diameter.
 
Austin Edwards said:
What would be the best way to measure your bore diameter to find out the best bullet to load with. I did use my calipers very carefully and it measured out to .448 this dose not seem to be right?
Click to expand...
You won't get an accurate reading that way, you will need to slug the barrel of you feel the need to know it's diameter. I just go with a cast bullet @ .459".
 
someguy2800 said:
Yes jacketed bullets do need to be treated a little differently than jacketed bullets. For example the Lyman reloading manual lists separate load data for jacketed and cast.

View attachment 867940

I suggest you try a faster burning powder such as 4198, Accurate 2015, or Reloader 7, and you may also need to check the bore size of your rifle. When shooting cast bullets it’s imperative that the bullet be .001” or more larger than the bore.
Click to expand...

When I was working up loads for my trap door I was told to hang around the mid teens for CUP....I think this is pretty good advice.
 
I think my Pedersoli is rated to 24 or 28K PSI (or CUP, I forget...) but I wouldn't take it anywhere near that. If you want to hotrod a single-shot, get a Ruger #1.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
IMR 4198 - 32gr
405gr Hi-tek coated Missouri bullet
Starline 45-70 brass
1350fps depending on the gun

The best load I know for everything from my trapdoor, to my 1886, rolling block, or Winchester hotchkiss.

If I were pushing faster in a modern gun I would use gas checks or jacketed bullets.
 
Thank you everyone for the help.
I have loaded and shot 4 3 shot test loads.
Consisting of:
Starline Brass
26 grains of 5744
Winchester large rifle primer
col @ 2.550
405 Grain .459 Flat Point Hunters Supply non gas checked.
No leading, the best group so far measures at 1.5 inches.
Shots have been made at 100 yards
Going to load a few more and keep trying.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like you’re on the right path.

I am also an IMR 3031 fan for my lever guns in .45/70, .30-30 and .35 Rem. I find the powder good for so many different loads it’s like Alluant Unique in revolver calibers.

Stay safe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
.45 pistol bullets for 45-70?
Replies
9
Views
7K
boommer
B
A
  • Locked
45-70 Government
Replies
8
Views
643
Jim Watson
J
C
  • Locked
45-70 case life
Replies
13
Views
3K
theleo
T
M
  • Locked
Question on 45-70 Dies
Replies
4
Views
379
Mac Attack
M
R
  • Locked
IMR SR-4759 and 45-70
Replies
1
Views
2K
snuffy
S
Back
Top