45 ACP lead load seating question

[JCSC]

I am casting and shooting some 230 gr TC bullets, sized to .452. My question and concern relate to flaring, shaving, etc.

I’m shooting mixed brass, so the outside diameter varies slightly around .475/.477”.

I am able to comfortably sit the bullet in the case .062-.080” deep, but I always feel a little resistance when I seat into the second driving band.

Sometimes I see a small sliver, but usually just some extra fine brass powder from the crimp/ flare removal. This usually leaves me around .470 for a finished load.

I’m using a rock chucker and rcbs dies. I’m afraid to use a FCD for fear of swaging the bullets, so seating and crimp in one operation.

I’m concerned about concentricity and leading. Wondering if I should flare more.

Does anyone have any numbers they use for the flare, or perhaps a seating stem that encompasses more of the truncated nose?

 

[CQB45ACP]

Why do you think an FCD will swage a .452” bullet? I’ve been using one for my 45acp rounds off and on since 2019 and don’t have that issue.

And, I just took three .452 bullets and dropped them into my 45acp FCD. All three dropped freely.

I presume you mean the carbide ring will swage them? Try it.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Ok, lets see if this helps at all. Flared .45acp cases measure 0.479-0.480" Bullet seated with very light taper crimp are 0.469" across the board.
Bullet is Missouri 230gr RN coated. OAL is 1.265".
Edit: Just saw CQB's post, My FCD does not swag my bullets either. Been loading this way since '93.

 

[JCSC]

Why do you think an FCD will swage a .452” bullet? I’ve been using one for my 45acp rounds off and on since 2019 and don’t have that issue.

And, I just took three .452 bullets and dropped them into my 45acp FCD. All three dropped freely.

I presume you mean the carbide ring will swage them? Try it.

Learned something new on this one

 

[Rule3]

The bullet looks coated? Did you size the bullets after coating?

Just flair enough to get bullet seated, seat to the correct depth and taper crimp it.
I have been using FCD for many years on all calibers and never had an issue. People can parrot back back all the internet nonsense about it. It works just fine when adjusted properly

 

[.45Coltguy]

"It works just fine when adjusted properly".^^^ And there you have it. Properly is key.

 

[ms6852]

The bullet looks coated? Did you size the bullets after coating?

Just flair enough to get bullet seated, seat to the correct depth and taper crimp it.
I have been using FCD for many years on all calibers and never had an issue. People can parrot back back all the internet nonsense about it. It works just fine when adjusted properly

This^^^^^^^^. The flair should be just enough to where you don't shave any lead or coating. Also when you crimp if you see a bulge you have crimped too much.

 

[JCSC]

Ok, lets see if this helps at all. Flared .45acp cases measure 0.479-0.480" Bullet seated with very light taper crimp are 0.469" across the board.
Bullet is Missouri 230gr RN coated. OAL is 1.265".
Edit: Just saw CQB's post, My FCD does not swag my bullets either. Been loading this way since '93.

Sounds like I should open my flare a few thousandths and give it a try. I was concerned with too much flare.

The carbide FCD concern came from oversized bore 9mm I had played with. I just never tried it again.

 

[JCSC]

Thanks everyone. I was just looking for the .480 ish flare diameter.

These are poured and powder coated x2 by me. .452”.

When I first cast and tried 9mm I found my slugged bore was too big for 356 sized bullets. I went to 38 special expander and in that scenario a carbide 9mm FCD will shine the mouth of the brass and swage the bullet.

I didn’t need to introduce that variable into this equation, so I went with my seat crimp for my tests. Works great. No bulge. I’m glade to know that the FCD will be fine.

 

[243winxb]

I always feel a little resistance when I seat into the second driving band.

The seat crimp die may remove the bell/flare to soon. The deeper the case mouth goes into the die, less flare.

I opened the inside diameter of my old RCBS seat die, in front of the taper crimp. Stopped the shaving of lead.

Newer RCBS expanders can be the "M" type.

Test- take an empty case, flare it an excessive amount. Measure case mouth flare at different depths into the die. Like 1/4 in 1/2 in & 3/4 measuring each time.

 

[mdi]

This old guy is a dedicated K.I.S.S. follower! All the measuring case walls and flares to the .001" won't hurt anything, but it's pretty hard to shove a 452" rod into a .450 tube without some sort of entryway. I would suggest you just use as much flare as you need to eliminate any shaving. Too much flare is when the case scrapes the sides or will not enter the seating die. Excess flare is removed with your deflaring die (aka taper crimp die). Get good, shootable handloads now, and worry about case life later...

 

[dartor]

This old guy is a dedicated K.I.S.S. follower!

So, ummm, you wanna Rock and Roll All Night and Party Every day???

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[mkl]

I purchased a Bowen "hand canon" in a 5-cylinder .45 Colt. Using the load data sheet that came with the resolver ALL bullets I tried came out as a result of recoil after the fourth or fifth shot using standard dies.

The Lee factory crimp die fixed the problem. I am a firm believer in this die for the final crimp if you have a recoil problem that is backing out bullets.

 

[Laphroaig]

I’m shooting mixed brass

Which most probably means that they vary a little in length. Seating and crimping with the same die will shave lead with brass that is longer than what was used to set up the right amount of crimp. Options are to trim all of your brass to the same length, or seat and crimp in 2 steps. If you fear the FCD, get a second seating die, remove the seating plug and use it as a dedicated crimp die.

I don't think that more flare is going to solve your problem.

 

[JCSC]

Which most probably means that they vary a little in length. Seating and crimping with the same die will shave lead with brass that is longer than what was used to set up the right amount of crimp. Options are to trim all of your brass to the same length, or seat and crimp in 2 steps. If you fear the FCD, get a second seating die, remove the seating plug and use it as a dedicated crimp die.

I don't think that more flare is going to solve your problem.

I wasn’t flaring enough. I ran 50 that came out perfect with the new process tonight. The extra .003 made a huge difference.

I never had an issue with crimping. No crushed cases or anything of the like. Just had the lead catching the case mouth after it passed the lube groove.

Thanks everyone for the comments.

 

[cfullgraf]

Chamfer the inside of the case mouth to remove the sharp, square edge. It helps with minimizing shaving lead when seating the bullet.

It is a one time thing with a case if you don’t trim your cases.

For 45 ACP, I keep the flair of the case mouth to a minimum and I taper crimp to remove the flair.

In my opinion, generally the Lee FCD is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[mdi]

So, ummm, you wanna Rock and Roll All Night and Party Every day???

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Cool! But, I'm a little before them. More like early Stones, CCR, ZZ Top...

 

[CQB45ACP]

Chamfer the inside of the case mouth to remove the sharp, square edge. It helps with minimizing shaving lead when seating the bullet.

It is a one time thing with a case if you don’t trim your cases.

For 45 ACP, I keep the flair of the case mouth to a minimum and I taper crimp to remove the flair.

In my opinion, generally the Lee FCD is a solution looking for a problem.

Except the problem/solution as described by @mkl?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I purchased a Bowen "hand canon" in a 5-cylinder .45 Colt. Using the load data sheet that came with the resolver ALL bullets I tried came out as a result of recoil after the fourth or fifth shot using standard dies.

The Lee factory crimp die fixed the problem. I am a firm believer in this die for the final crimp if you have a recoil problem that is backing out bullets.

Did you consider using an undersized sizing die? Just curious.

 

[cfullgraf]

Except the problem/solution as described by @mkl?

An appropriately adjusted mouth expander die and roll crimp die will fix @mkl's problem. Also, when roll crimping a handgun case, they need to be trimmed to the same length so the the roll crimp is uniform from round to round.

I have a 460 S&W Mag revolver and never have bulllet movement under recoil. I do not use a Lee FCD die with it.

The only use I've found for a Lee handgun FCD die is when I load 38 Special wadcuttters with mixed head stamped brass. Some cases have a thicker case wall and they don't chamber in my revolvers. The Lee FCD die swages down the bullet and brass so that the rounds chamber. I get maybe two or three rounds from a reloading run of 500 or so. As I find the "bad" cases, they get culled and scrapped.

P.S. The Lee handgun FCD die and the Lee rifle FCD die are different animals. The rifle die has uses if you crimp your rifle ammunition.

 

[.45Coltguy]

The bullet looks coated? Did you size the bullets after coating?

Just flair enough to get bullet seated, seat to the correct depth and taper crimp it.
I have been using FCD for many years on all calibers and never had an issue. People can parrot back back all the internet nonsense about it. It works just fine when adjusted properly

Read Rule3's last sentence. This has alot of merit and simply makes sense.

 

[BW460]

There are 4 different types of dies that Lee calls Factory Crimp Dies. A taper crimp die with a carbide ring. A roll crimp die with a carbide ring, a collet die for revolver cartridges without a carbide ring, and a collet die for rifle cartridges. I have, and use, all four. In the OP's case, we are talking about the taper crimp version. The taper crimp portion of this die is no different than any other taper crimp die. The difference is the carbide ring. "IF" you reload in a perfect world, you will never need the carbide ring. By that, I mean all brass is the same brand, trimed to the same length, and chamfered, and you use an M style, or similar, die to bell the case. Myself, and many others, are range brass junkies. Any empty brass on the ground goes in my pocket. Different brands of brass require different settings of your dies. However, I don't do that. I pick a setting that works for most all of it, and a bell that won't shave lead, and off I go. I rarely have issues with 45 auto, but for 9mm, aproximately 8 percent won't pass the plunk test. So those go through the FCD. The carbide ring will iron out the brass on almost every one of them so that they now pass the plunk test. IF you are using lead bullets, and IF the bulge in the brass is not too great, then the carbide ring will not resize the lead bullet. However, if the cartridge is a mess and the carbide ring is working hard, you MIGHT resize the bullet. Note that if there is no buldge in the case, because your dies are set for that specific brand of brass, then the carbide ring will never touch the case and will never resize the bullet. In the OP's case it seemed as though he was not having an issue with bulging cases but rather, he needed to slightly increase the bell. I agree that chamfering the brass would help. The reason people say the FCD is a solution looking for a problem is that if you are able to control what brass you are using, you may never need that carbide ring to fix the finished round.

The issue of the roll crimp FCD resizing the lead bullet is a much bigger issue with revolver rounds. If your 45 Colt requires a .454 bullet to fit the cylinders, a roll crimp FCD will absolutely resize that bullet. But, if you don't shoot revolvers, you may not know that. Now, I will say, that the collet style FCD for revolver cartridges is a thing of beauty. If your 44 mag bullets, or 454 Casull, or 460 S&W mag, bullets are walking due to recoil, this is the crimp die that will solve your problems. It will not resize the bullet other than the fact that you can squish the crap out of the bullet at the case mouth if you over do it. By the way, the bullet moving on recoil probably means you don't have enough neck tension.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Cool! But, I'm a little before them. More like early Stones, CCR, ZZ Top...

Harry James, Benny Goodman, Xavier Cougat, Artie Shaw - that dude was a real madman! Can’t beat Big Band if you’re into sound.

I don’t use an FCD for .45Colt. I do use them for quite a few cartridges, just not .45Colt. If the problem is solved with just a touch more flair, then you found a good solution.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Harry James, Benny Goodman, Xavier Cougat, Artie Shaw - that dude was a real madman! Can’t beat Big Band if you’re into sound.

I don’t use an FCD for .45Colt. I do use them for quite a few cartridges, just not .45Colt. If the problem is solved with just a touch more flair, then you found a good solution.

I started with the FCD in both 9mm & 45acp but only use for 9mm now when I crimp at all—most of time don’t need to.

Taper crimp FCD gets a bad rap in my view. But regardless, I use an undersized sizing die for both now thus my bullet tension/setback boogeyman is addressed which taper crimping doesn’t actually address anyway.

I like big bands too—these from summer of junior year. After this I tried to get my Dad to let me go to Woodstock. Would’ve thought I asked to go to CPUSA summer camp.

 

[.45Coltguy]

I started with the FCD in both 9mm & 45acp but only use for 9mm now when I crimp at all—most of time don’t need to.

Taper crimp FCD gets a bad rap in my view. But regardless, I use an undersized sizing die for both now thus my bullet tension/setback boogeyman is addressed which taper crimping doesn’t actually address anyway.

I like big bands too—these from summer of junior year. After this I tried to get my Dad to let me go to Woodstock. Would’ve thought I asked to go to CPUSA summer camp.

View attachment 1163953

That, would have been a hellava festival!