45 acp load thar equals or surpasses 357mag

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

NewGuy1911

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
84
Been considering getting a Smith & Wesson 27-2, 3 1/2" barrel, 357 mag. To be honest I really should improve my 1911 skills.

So the question is;

357 mag from 3 1/2" barrel, what 45 acp load would equal or exceed the mag? I wouls like to stay at 200gr or above.

I have a Kimber Carry Pro II SS (4") and a Kimber 5".

Many Thanks
 
Uh, sorry, but that ain't gonna happen with a 1911 in .45ACP. If you want to exceed the .357 Magnum in power with a .45, consider a .45LC in a frame strong enough for 20k+ CUP handloads.

Don
 
With the right load, the 45 ACP will certainly get the job done against the miscreants we encounter on a daily basis. And the 357 will do the job with more penetration, but the hole isn't as big. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
 
"Better" is a tough thing to pinpoint. The other day I ran some Power Pistol and some 250gr RNFP Missouri "PinBusters" hardcast. From a 3.78" Glock 30 it averaged 910 fps. I would imagine close to 950+ fps from a 5" 1911.

With 230gr jacketed, I can touch 1,000 fps with Power Pistol from a 5" bbl.

Now is it better than the .357? If better can be defined then you'll have a direct yes/no answer. Will a 230gr at 950-1000 fps or a 250gr hardcast at 900-950 fps kill most anything you would run into? Yes.

UPDATE
250gr RNFP hardcast will run 975 fps avg from a 5" barrel. I'm impressed!
 
Last edited:
Its really difficult to compare the two. Raw energy numbers the full bore 357 pretty well always wins, but energy isnt everything. Magazine editors nowadays focus too much on it, IMO.
 
NewGuy1911 said:
45 acp load thar equals or surpasses 357mag
Click to expand...
45 Super perhaps? :D https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=15

185 gr JHP - 1,300 ft/s - 694 ft· lb.
200 gr JHP - 1,200 ft/s - 639 ft· lb.
230 gr FMJ - 1,100 ft/s - 618 ft· lb.


vs 357 Mag "standard" loads:

Remington 125 gr Golden Saber JHP - 1220 fps - 413 ft. lb.
Speer 125 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point - 1450 fps - 584 ft. lb.
Federal 158 gr Hydra-Shok® JHP - 1240 fps - 540 ft. lb.
Hornady 140 gr Custom XTP - 1500 fps - 624 ft. lb.


357 Mag "heavy" loads https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=20

125 gr JHP - 1,700 fps - 802 ft. lb.
158 gr JHP - 1,475fps - 763 ft. lb.
 
Last edited:
Are the 357 mag loads from a 3 1/2" revolver barrel? I do like the idea 45 Super (with spring changes and not a steady diet).

The "Apple & Oranges" is also about the Smith & Wesson 27-2, 3 1/2" 357 vs a 4" or 5" 1911 45 acp. I have found myself wanting one. When I returned to the shooting sports I wanted to stick with one pistol and learn to use it well.

The question maybe more about a comparison between them.

On a side note; a burglar broke into a house (apartment?) and the owner and burglar shot it out. I believe the owner unloaded his 357 revolver, many hits. The bad guy drove to the hospitable and the later the owner joined him.

Kinda makes one stop and wonder! Both lived, not sure if both went to jail.
 
On a side note; a burglar broke into a house (apartment?) and the owner and burglar shot it out. I believe the owner unloaded his 357 revolver, many hits. The bad guy drove to the hospitable and the later the owner joined him.

Kinda makes one stop and wonder! Both lived, not sure if both went to jail.
Click to expand...

I guess you’re making a good argument for skipping the new pistol purchase and get more trigger times and training w/ the one you already have.
 
As suggested by some, if you could, I would range test both and run some fast draw/rapid fire drills and use the pistol that produced more consistent shot group for you as missed shots don't count.
 
I had and carried on duty a 3 1/2 inch Model 27 a few years. Liked it better than my Model 19. Replaced the 27 as a carry weapon with a Model 66.

As for your question:

Back a hundred years and more, John Browning had this nice little pistol in 45 cal with a 200 grain bullet. He updated that pistol and the round for it and we have the 1911 Colt and .45 ACP. This was loaded with 230 grain bullets with a nominal chamber pressure of 16,000 {lead} COPPER units of pressure. (No, I can not explain just what that is. Only that it is a steel ball pressing into lead or something like that. I actually don't care.)

Move forward to the mid 1930s. Another new, hot shot, 38 long, super speed, wiz-bang chambering round comes out. This one is called the .357 Magnum! Sounded impressive and it actually is. This one gets a {lead} COPPER units of pressure of 35,000. What does that mean? It makes a lot of noise, kicks hard and pushes bullets very, very fast. Fast bullets convey greater energies.

Let see..... 16,000 compared to 35,000... That's almost double the pressure!

Energy from the .357 Magnum is going to always over shadow that of the .45 ACP.

Other things to think about; penetration - expend all energies in the target or some place the other side of that target? Bullet channel - the .357 has a frontal area of 0.100098 square inches. The .45 ACP is 0.159751 square inches. That's half again larger. Expansion - Smaller bullets (at pistol velocities) depend upon bullet expansion to make bigger wound channels. Bigger bullets just lumber along and make bigger wound channels.

I'm not about to get into an argument, speed versus mass. That has been beaten to death with no winners. It takes a lot of both.

I don't know your uses for either of these. I favor rapid reload and fast follow ups for self defense. Poking holes in paper is just enjoyment, use both if you like. Hunting, with a hand gun, is a specialized process. I wouldn't favor either stated round for much more than vermin disposal. Not that both can't and haven't taken a lot of large game. Just not what I consider ideal.

Correction : "{lead} COPPER". I made a booboo and it was corrected. Thanks
 
Last edited:
" and run some fast draw/rapid fire drills and use the pistol that produced more consistent shot group for you as missed shots don't count."
dbs

Good idea.
We called it the 'Modified El Presidente'.
The set up is three 'B27' targets set 6 ft edge to edge and a range of 21 feet. The shooters back is to the targets. The order of targets is given (9 nine options - left, center, right or right , center, left or.. you get it.) and 'Begin' and the stop watch starts. The shooter turns, draws and fires two shots into each target, in the order given, reloads (change mags with auto-loaders) and fire the same again. The stop watch stops on the last shot. Only 'kills' count, 5 points each, total possible is 60 points. Now subtract one point per second used.

It's fast and fun to shoot. Only uses 12 rounds per set. You've got to think and shoot accurately in a short time. Misses hurt, badly.

This doesn't favor auto or revolvers but does favor hitting your target fast. Full blown Magnum loads don't make for rapid follow up shots. I guess three assailants would give you a pass just because you are shoot a Magnum and not kill you.

Try it with your .45 and your Model 27. Make it easy on yourself, use .38s :rolleyes:
 
I had and carried on duty a 3 1/2 inch Model 27 a few years. Liked it better than my Model 19. Replaced the 27 as a carry weapon with a Model 66.

As for your question:

Back a hundred years and more, John Browning had this nice little pistol in 45 cal with a 200 grain bullet. He updated that pistol and the round for it and we have the 1911 Colt and .45 ACP. This was loaded with 230 grain bullets with a nominal chamber pressure of 16,000 lead units of pressure. (No, I can not explain just what that is. Only that it is a steel ball pressing into lead or something like that. I actually don't care.)

Move forward to the mid 1930s. Another new, hot shot, 38 long, super speed, wiz-bang chambering round comes out. This one is called the .357 Magnum! Sounded impressive and it actually is. This one gets a lead units of pressure of 35,000. What does that mean? It makes a lot of noise, kicks hard and pushes bullets very, very fast. Fast bullets convey greater energies.

Let see..... 16,000 compared to 35,000... That's almost double the pressure!

Energy from the .357 Magnum is going to always over shadow that of the .45 ACP.

Other things to think about; penetration - expend all energies in the target or some place the other side of that target? Bullet channel - the .357 has a frontal area of 0.100098 square inches. The .45 ACP is 0.159751 square inches. That's half again larger. Expansion - Smaller bullets (at pistol velocities) depend upon bullet expansion to make bigger wound channels. Bigger bullets just lumber along and make bigger wound channels.

I'm not about to get into an argument, speed versus mass. That has been beaten to death with no winners. It takes a lot of both.

I don't know your uses for either of these. I favor rapid reload and fast follow ups for self defense. Poking holes in paper is just enjoyment, use both if you like. Hunting, with a hand gun, is a specialized process. I wouldn't favor either stated round for much more than vermin disposal. Not that both can't and haven't taken a lot of large game. Just not what I consider ideal.
Click to expand...

I have never seen 45acp or 357 loads expressed in LUP, only CUP.
 
ljnowell,
UR right, CUP, not LUP.

Being old got to me again. Keep me on my toes, someones got to.

Thanks,

Oh, I still don't understand the steel ball compression stuff. Happy to see that electronic sensors are used now. I can understand the application with them.
 
ljnowell,
UR right, CUP, not LUP.

Being old got to me again. Keep me on my toes, someones got to.

Thanks,

Oh, I still don't understand the steel ball compression stuff. Happy to see that electronic sensors are used now. I can understand the application with them.
Click to expand...

That whole CUP thing seems a little like voodoo anyway, lol. I feel much better with the current methods, and the way it affected load data, it seems like it was definately needed.
 
What do you mean by 'equal'?

Equally effective is a total wash. They're opposites. Fast and slow, light and fast. They both work well with modern ammunition, but if you're looking for equal numbers of some kind, you just can't get there from here.
 
Pick the platform you shoot the best and go with that.

.45acp or .357, both have been proven as effective stopping rounds. You aren't going to find a definitive answer one way or the other.

That being said, I find the 45acp in a 4" platform much more concealable and controllable than a .357 revolver in with a 3" to 4" barrel.
 
IMHO this is a comparison that can't be made.

The .45 Auto is a low pressure cartridge what pushes a large wide projectile at modest velocities but will penetrate and stop the bad guy. (street proven)

The .357 Magnum is a high pressure cartridge what pushes a 125gr or 158gr bullet fast and will cause violent disruption in a human body. (also street proven)

I like revolvers so I carry a 38/357. If I choose to carry a 1911 I would carry a 45 Auto. Choose your platform and you choose your round. There is no wrong answer between the two in this question. (again, IMHO)
 
ArchAngelCD said:
IMHO this is a comparison that can't be made.

The .45 Auto is a low pressure cartridge what pushes a large wide projectile at modest velocities but will penetrate and stop the bad guy. (street proven)

The .357 Magnum is a high pressure cartridge what pushes a 125gr or 158gr bullet fast and will cause violent disruption in a human body. (also street proven)

I like revolvers so I carry a 38/357. If I choose to carry a 1911 I would carry a 45 Auto. Choose your platform and you choose your round. There is no wrong answer between the two in this question. (again, IMHO)
Click to expand...

I couldnt agree with this more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

E
  • Locked
Any suggestions for .45 ACP +P loads?
Replies
8
Views
740
John Galt
J
J
  • Locked
45 acp primer
Replies
10
Views
879
Doug b
D
R
  • Locked
Need Accurate, Low Recoil 45 ACP target load
Replies
12
Views
6K
Gravedigger56
Gravedigger56
M
  • Locked
Wad Cutter in 45 ACP?
Replies
3
Views
481
John C
J
J
  • Locked
Help with Load for .45 Snubby
Replies
2
Views
648
JoeHatley
J
Back
Top