Bwana John
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- Sep 10, 2004
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If I was really that worryed about bears Id have a 12 guage with slugs. Because all we got around here is blackies, I aint that worryed.
.45 APC on bears for self-defense
- Thread starter SamlautRanger
- Start date
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Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I like the idea of my Marlin Guide Gun. When the bear charges my 1911 can stay where it'll do the most good. In my holster.
carnaby
Member
well, all I have is a kimber ultra compact .45 1911. So if I go hiking it goes with me. I don't go anywhere ordinary unarmed hikers don't go anyway, and if I encounter a black bear (no griz around here), then I'll try to avoid it first. If it comes to the worst case scenario and the bear attacks, I'm certainly not going to keep the 1911 in the holster because it's not good enough.
And who here would shoot at a charging bear at 60 yards? If you had that kind of distance between you and the bear, get behind a damn tree or rock and wait till you can see the blacks of his eyes.
Better to have the bear shoving an empty 1911 up your aSh than a full one. With or without the bacon grease or short barrel.
I do like the idea of pepper spray, in that if the bear is that close and you pepper both him and yourself, it'd be a good AFHV moment with the two of you rolling on the ground in mutual agony.
And who here would shoot at a charging bear at 60 yards? If you had that kind of distance between you and the bear, get behind a damn tree or rock and wait till you can see the blacks of his eyes.
Better to have the bear shoving an empty 1911 up your aSh than a full one. With or without the bacon grease or short barrel.
I do like the idea of pepper spray, in that if the bear is that close and you pepper both him and yourself, it'd be a good AFHV moment with the two of you rolling on the ground in mutual agony.
Sir Aardvark
Member
I remember reading this thread at the beginning of the year.
About 10 years ago or so there was a cow that got off a cattle truck on a freeway nearby; the local cops shot the thing about 40 times with their .45 ACP handguns and could not kill the thing.
It was pretty hilarious - in a sad sort of way - watching these cops on the news unload on a cow that would not die.
If 40 shots from a .45 ACP will not kill a cow, how good do you think it will do against a bear?.
(If I remember correctly, this happened on Interstate 5 in Orange County, California and it was Buena Park PD and CHP involved in the shooting - shotguns were involved too, but also lacked the penetration necessary - look it up if you don't believe me)
About 10 years ago or so there was a cow that got off a cattle truck on a freeway nearby; the local cops shot the thing about 40 times with their .45 ACP handguns and could not kill the thing.
It was pretty hilarious - in a sad sort of way - watching these cops on the news unload on a cow that would not die.
If 40 shots from a .45 ACP will not kill a cow, how good do you think it will do against a bear?.
(If I remember correctly, this happened on Interstate 5 in Orange County, California and it was Buena Park PD and CHP involved in the shooting - shotguns were involved too, but also lacked the penetration necessary - look it up if you don't believe me)
jashobeam
Member
Where to begin?
I will begin by saying that though I am not an expert, I have read many books and articles about people's encounters with bears, both black and grizzly. Just as there is much debate over which handgun calibers offer the best and most consistent stopping power against humans--with stories and statistics on how each caliber has at one time or another failed to incapacitate a human being in the way it was expected to--there exist accounts of bears failing to succomb to "proven" bear cartridges, in both hunting and defense scenarios. Killing or stopping a bear depends on the placement of a sufficiently powerful bullet (objective); deterring a bear depends largely on the bear (subjective). To bet on the subjective is to gamble with your life.
Shooting a grizzly in the chest is not the best way to stop it from attacking. There are a number of stories of bears continuing to charge and attack even after their hearts had been completely shot out. The bear must be stopped; a wound, even a fatal wound, that fails to accomplish this is useless.
A charging bear must be disabled; he must be rendered incapable of rapid forward movement. Many people recommend shooting at a bear's shoulder so as to break the foreleg or damage the shoulder girdle.
Severing the spine by shooting a grizzly bear in the hump located on his back between his shoulders has been shown to drop a charging grizzly. It seems to me that this would require a very good shot and a steady hand.
Head shots. Someone posted in this thread that even smallish calibers, like the 9mm, are capable of penetrating a grizzly bear's skull. While I am not competent to say which calibers will or will not penetrate a griz's skull, I will say that there are many, many stories of grizzly bears being shot in the head, face, and jaw with sufficiently large and powerful rifle cartridges but with little initial effect. Bears have been known to pick up grown men in their mouths though their jaws have been practically blown apart on one side. My point is that a head shot may not necessarily be a brain shot, and, therefore, may not save your skin.
There are also several accounts of bears, after being shot in the face with .38's and .357's, dancing around wildly while slapping themselves in the face as if stung by a bee.
While some bears are frightened off by warning shots, others pay absolutely no attention.
OTOH, A .45 ACP, or any other horribly inadequate cartridge, may serve the same purpose with which one man employed his knife: he inflicted later-to-be-fatal wounds on a grizzly bear by stabbing it repeatedly in the stomach as it lay atop him chewing on his head and face.
BTW, I think a .45 ACP might prove useful in deterring--possibly even stopping/killing--a black bear. If you choose, however, to protect yourself in grizzly/brown bear country with a .45 ACP, save yourself some embarrassment and don't tell anyone you meet that you brought such a gun for that purpose. There are many good books on bear safety, such as Bear Attacks--The Deadly Truth, by James Gary Shelton. Read, read, read, and read some more. Also, read my post about Bear Spray--it works.
I will begin by saying that though I am not an expert, I have read many books and articles about people's encounters with bears, both black and grizzly. Just as there is much debate over which handgun calibers offer the best and most consistent stopping power against humans--with stories and statistics on how each caliber has at one time or another failed to incapacitate a human being in the way it was expected to--there exist accounts of bears failing to succomb to "proven" bear cartridges, in both hunting and defense scenarios. Killing or stopping a bear depends on the placement of a sufficiently powerful bullet (objective); deterring a bear depends largely on the bear (subjective). To bet on the subjective is to gamble with your life.
Shooting a grizzly in the chest is not the best way to stop it from attacking. There are a number of stories of bears continuing to charge and attack even after their hearts had been completely shot out. The bear must be stopped; a wound, even a fatal wound, that fails to accomplish this is useless.
A charging bear must be disabled; he must be rendered incapable of rapid forward movement. Many people recommend shooting at a bear's shoulder so as to break the foreleg or damage the shoulder girdle.
Severing the spine by shooting a grizzly bear in the hump located on his back between his shoulders has been shown to drop a charging grizzly. It seems to me that this would require a very good shot and a steady hand.
Head shots. Someone posted in this thread that even smallish calibers, like the 9mm, are capable of penetrating a grizzly bear's skull. While I am not competent to say which calibers will or will not penetrate a griz's skull, I will say that there are many, many stories of grizzly bears being shot in the head, face, and jaw with sufficiently large and powerful rifle cartridges but with little initial effect. Bears have been known to pick up grown men in their mouths though their jaws have been practically blown apart on one side. My point is that a head shot may not necessarily be a brain shot, and, therefore, may not save your skin.
There are also several accounts of bears, after being shot in the face with .38's and .357's, dancing around wildly while slapping themselves in the face as if stung by a bee.
While some bears are frightened off by warning shots, others pay absolutely no attention.
OTOH, A .45 ACP, or any other horribly inadequate cartridge, may serve the same purpose with which one man employed his knife: he inflicted later-to-be-fatal wounds on a grizzly bear by stabbing it repeatedly in the stomach as it lay atop him chewing on his head and face.
BTW, I think a .45 ACP might prove useful in deterring--possibly even stopping/killing--a black bear. If you choose, however, to protect yourself in grizzly/brown bear country with a .45 ACP, save yourself some embarrassment and don't tell anyone you meet that you brought such a gun for that purpose. There are many good books on bear safety, such as Bear Attacks--The Deadly Truth, by James Gary Shelton. Read, read, read, and read some more. Also, read my post about Bear Spray--it works.
I've done alot of reading about repelling bear attacks, and a few things have stuck out in my mind.
One is, a 9mm in your hand beats a 30-06 in the truck.
A bear self defense gun is one you will ALWAYS have with you, available at a quick draw. It is not a bear hunting gun. It is a self defense weapon, designed to slow the bear long enough for you to get to your rifle or for your friends to help you out. Its better to have a Glock 19 that you will always have at your side than a .454 that you sometimes leave in the tent because its to heavy and uncomfortable.
For me, I'd want either a lightweight seven-shot .357 revolver, or something Glock-like in 9mm/.40/.45/10mm. I'd also want friends with me who also had always everywhere guns with them.
RE: Ammo choice, no hollow points allowed. FMJ and hard-cast only.
I know what I'm saying sounds radical, but I have not found a single report of someone dying from a bear attack where they got a shot off. In every case where the person was got off a shot, they made it out ok. Either the bear was killed by the pistol, or the pistol slowed the bear down enough for other friends to shoot the bear with their pistols, too, or the pistol slowed down the bear enough for someone to get their rifle.
Bottom line, everybody who got off a shot lived. None were mauled either.
Don't think of the pistol as a bear hunting gun.
Think of it as peppar spray +P.
-David
One is, a 9mm in your hand beats a 30-06 in the truck.
A bear self defense gun is one you will ALWAYS have with you, available at a quick draw. It is not a bear hunting gun. It is a self defense weapon, designed to slow the bear long enough for you to get to your rifle or for your friends to help you out. Its better to have a Glock 19 that you will always have at your side than a .454 that you sometimes leave in the tent because its to heavy and uncomfortable.
For me, I'd want either a lightweight seven-shot .357 revolver, or something Glock-like in 9mm/.40/.45/10mm. I'd also want friends with me who also had always everywhere guns with them.
RE: Ammo choice, no hollow points allowed. FMJ and hard-cast only.
I know what I'm saying sounds radical, but I have not found a single report of someone dying from a bear attack where they got a shot off. In every case where the person was got off a shot, they made it out ok. Either the bear was killed by the pistol, or the pistol slowed the bear down enough for other friends to shoot the bear with their pistols, too, or the pistol slowed down the bear enough for someone to get their rifle.
Bottom line, everybody who got off a shot lived. None were mauled either.
Don't think of the pistol as a bear hunting gun.
Think of it as peppar spray +P.
-David
jashobeam
Member
False information=Deadly advice
Sir, I do not know what form of literature you have read that would have given you such false information; I can only assume that it was either a very limited selection of stories or it was a fictional work. While forums are for sharing opinions, to give dangerous advice such as you did potentially places others' lives in jeopardy.
"Bottom line, everybody who got off a shot lived. None were mauled either." How unfounded a claim is that? Partially consumed victims have been found with their recently fired weapons nearby. In some of these cases, the bears were never found. Did you simply disregard everything I wrote? Full-size rifles chambered in .30-06, .300 and .338 Win. Mag. fired at a charging bear have at times been ineffective at "slowing down" a bear; how then would a small pistol "slow down" a charging grizzly well enough to allow someone to retrieve a larger weapon? Many people with whom a grizzly makes contact end up scalped.
.44 Magnums have been successfully utilized to drop grizzly/brown bears in their tracks. Any handgun at least as powerful as a .44 Magnum should therefore have the potential of renderring a bear incapable of following through with its attack.
I must leave for work now or I would site references of specific attacks where firearms were involved but proved unable to prevent actual contact and subsequent mauling.
BTW, pepper spray is far more effective than an inadequately powered cartridge or a poorly placed shot.
Sir, I do not know what form of literature you have read that would have given you such false information; I can only assume that it was either a very limited selection of stories or it was a fictional work. While forums are for sharing opinions, to give dangerous advice such as you did potentially places others' lives in jeopardy.
"Bottom line, everybody who got off a shot lived. None were mauled either." How unfounded a claim is that? Partially consumed victims have been found with their recently fired weapons nearby. In some of these cases, the bears were never found. Did you simply disregard everything I wrote? Full-size rifles chambered in .30-06, .300 and .338 Win. Mag. fired at a charging bear have at times been ineffective at "slowing down" a bear; how then would a small pistol "slow down" a charging grizzly well enough to allow someone to retrieve a larger weapon? Many people with whom a grizzly makes contact end up scalped.
.44 Magnums have been successfully utilized to drop grizzly/brown bears in their tracks. Any handgun at least as powerful as a .44 Magnum should therefore have the potential of renderring a bear incapable of following through with its attack.
I must leave for work now or I would site references of specific attacks where firearms were involved but proved unable to prevent actual contact and subsequent mauling.
BTW, pepper spray is far more effective than an inadequately powered cartridge or a poorly placed shot.
I must leave for work now or I would site references of specific attacks where firearms were involved but proved unable to prevent actual contact and subsequent mauling.
Please do, I'd love to read them.
I will say, I have never shot a bear, and I have no first hand experience with them.
I was considering taking a job in Alaska. That led to me reading quite a bit on bear attacks.
While I found multiple instances where bears seemed unaffected when shot by large-caliber rifles, these stories all related to the hunting and pursuit of bears.
The bear self-defense stories all had one recurrent theme:
The person had a handgun on their person, ready to draw and fire.
Many folks had hi-powered rifles, were charged by bears, but couldn't raise the rifle fast enough. So they were injured and/or killed, even when their buddies were able to respond with rifle fire to kill or repel the bear.
But the folks with handguns on their hips all lived (calibers included 9mm, .45 LC, 10mm, .44 mag, and .40 S&W).
However, that was just my research on the internet. I would love to see any evidence to the contrary. I'd rather learn that I was wrong and learn from it than be right and be ignorant.
Please post whatever you find,
Thanks,
David
Please do, I'd love to read them.
I will say, I have never shot a bear, and I have no first hand experience with them.
I was considering taking a job in Alaska. That led to me reading quite a bit on bear attacks.
While I found multiple instances where bears seemed unaffected when shot by large-caliber rifles, these stories all related to the hunting and pursuit of bears.
The bear self-defense stories all had one recurrent theme:
The person had a handgun on their person, ready to draw and fire.
Many folks had hi-powered rifles, were charged by bears, but couldn't raise the rifle fast enough. So they were injured and/or killed, even when their buddies were able to respond with rifle fire to kill or repel the bear.
But the folks with handguns on their hips all lived (calibers included 9mm, .45 LC, 10mm, .44 mag, and .40 S&W).
However, that was just my research on the internet. I would love to see any evidence to the contrary. I'd rather learn that I was wrong and learn from it than be right and be ignorant.
Please post whatever you find,
Thanks,
David
I'll second the previous post. Off the top of my head, I think of a case where a man hunting elk was attacked by either a griz or a brown after taking his elk. He unsuccessfully attempted to stop the bear with his .270...I *think* the bear died later, but the man definitely did.
John
John
jashobeam
Member
Thank you for seeking the truth on an important subject such as defending oneself against a bear attack. BTW, I absolutely love reading stories about bear attacks and bear encounters of all kinds. The most interesting aspects have less to do with the physical damage done by the bear and more to do with the amount of damage the human body can sustain and endure, and the thought process of the victim during the attack and the psychological impact that results, often lasting for many years. The following people used guns on bears but were still unable to prevent contact and subsequent mauling.
The first story is from More Alaska Bear Tales by Larry Kaniut. On pages 168-170 a grizzly mauling victim, Jack Naus, tells his own story in a letter written to the book's author. I will pick up the story where the bear comes in.
"As Dave cried, "It's big, whatever it is!" a medium-sized brown/grizzly bear, weighing three hundred to four hundred pounds, broke through brush and charged from approximately thirty yards away.
"Dave jumped to his right and I to my left, allowing room for the bear to escape. About ten yards into its charge, the bear made a sudden ninety-degree turn toward me. I immediately snapped off a shot--using a .300 Winchester Magnum, 180-grain factory loads--hitting the bear between the head and the left shoulder. He was so close that I saw the dust fly. He bowled over.
"As I fired, I had a feeling my bullet wouldn't stop him, and sure enough, the bear made a forward roll and bounced back onto his feet. Although Dave later told me that I fired in rapid succession, the next few seconds seemed to take place in slow motion. When I reloaded, I thought the round was never going to chamber. My next shot must have hit his skull as I tripped and fell backwards. I still carry lead in my right arm from where the bullet fragmented and ricocheted into my arm. That's how close he was!
"The next thing I knew, I had a large brown bear with his jaws wrapped around my hip. At that point, things got hazy. Dave shouted at me to lay down and take it easy. He shot the bear twice, and the animal false charged Dave and then ran back into the woods.
"I sustained about five half-inch round punture wounds spread below my navel and around my left hip to my buttocks; a five-inch gash on the inner left leg and groin; a gash from the mid-cheek of my face to the top of my ear; and four to six entry wounds on my left arm from my own bullet."
300-400 lbs. is a relatively small grizzly; a .300 Winchester Magnum is a large and powerful weapon. The second story is from the same book, pages 178-183, told by the victim, Ben Moore. Again, I will pick up the story where the bear enters it.
"I came to a wide, open clearing, and I lifted my binoculars to glass for animals. Suddenly, I noticed a bear through the glasses, and my heart skipped a beat. The image was so close it was fuzzy. The bear was on the same ridge where I was standing, about one hundred feet away. At about the same time I put the binoculars down, the bear stood up on his hind legs with his head above the brush. It bobbed its head, opened its mouth and looked at me for severa secons, then dropped out of sight.
"I was a little startled, but not too concerned about being in danger. I've read quite a bit about bears and figured if I didn't react, the bear would move on. I relaxed, standing perfectly still. As I was glancing around, the brush exploded and I saw a ball of fur hurling toward me like it had been shot out of the bushes. I reached down and pulled out my revolver, a .357 Ruger single-action. By the time I drew and cocked my gun, the bear had practically reached the end of the barrel. I pulled the trigger, hitting the bear somewhere in the chest.
"Still the bear charged forward, grabbing me by my lower right leg as he ran by. He picked me up, swung me over his head and actually threw me like I was a feather pillow. I landed on a rock several feet away, barely hitting the ground before the bear was on top of me, chewing my upper right leg.
"Miraculously, I hadn't dropped my revolver and managed to get off another shot; but I was shaking so uncontrollably that I completely missed the bear. I struggled to cock the gun again, fired and hit the animal in the stomach, about a foot from my face. A huge hole opened up in its abdomen and blood poured from the wound, but the injury only angered the bear more. It grabbed me by the head, picked me up and shook. As I heard the bones in my face cracking, the bear dropped me. I fell on my back, staring up at the bear directly over me with its mouth open. The grizzly saw me move and came down for my head again. But as the bear lowered its head, I lifted my right arm, cocked the gun and jammed the pistol clear into its mouth. I pulled the trigger. The timing was perfect. When I fired that final shot, the pistol and my hands were in the bear's mouth.
"The bear shook its head and shuddered. It reared back and took a powerful swing at me with its paw. And, almost as if the bear knew what had caused the hurt, it tried to knock the gun out of the way, but I clasped it tightly with both hands. Then the bear staggered over the ridge and down into the brush."
"My nose was actually hanging off..."
A quick comparison in ballistics:
The energy of a .300 Winchester Magnum at 0 yards is between 3500 and 3800 ft-lb.
The energy of a .357 Magnum at 0 yards is between 400 and 625 ft-lb.
10 mm: 425-649 ft-lb.
.41 Magnum: 600-790 ft-lb.
.44 Magnum: 720-1035 ft-lb.
.45 ACP: 320-540 ft-lb.
.454 Casull: 938-1923 ft-lb.
This post is long enough, but quickly: The energy of a cartridge does make a difference in terms of penetration and damage. If a .300 Win. Mag. is able to glance off of a bear's skull or fragment and ricochet, how can anyone suspect that an inferior (less powerful) cartridge could possibly do any better? Carry the most powerful weapon possible. If someone would like, I could site stories in which bear spray successully repelled a bear.
In the book Arctic Homestead by Norma Cobb and Charles W. Sasser, Norma tells of her husband Les Cobb successfully killing charging grizzly bears with his .44 Magnum revolver on several occasions.
The first story is from More Alaska Bear Tales by Larry Kaniut. On pages 168-170 a grizzly mauling victim, Jack Naus, tells his own story in a letter written to the book's author. I will pick up the story where the bear comes in.
"As Dave cried, "It's big, whatever it is!" a medium-sized brown/grizzly bear, weighing three hundred to four hundred pounds, broke through brush and charged from approximately thirty yards away.
"Dave jumped to his right and I to my left, allowing room for the bear to escape. About ten yards into its charge, the bear made a sudden ninety-degree turn toward me. I immediately snapped off a shot--using a .300 Winchester Magnum, 180-grain factory loads--hitting the bear between the head and the left shoulder. He was so close that I saw the dust fly. He bowled over.
"As I fired, I had a feeling my bullet wouldn't stop him, and sure enough, the bear made a forward roll and bounced back onto his feet. Although Dave later told me that I fired in rapid succession, the next few seconds seemed to take place in slow motion. When I reloaded, I thought the round was never going to chamber. My next shot must have hit his skull as I tripped and fell backwards. I still carry lead in my right arm from where the bullet fragmented and ricocheted into my arm. That's how close he was!
"The next thing I knew, I had a large brown bear with his jaws wrapped around my hip. At that point, things got hazy. Dave shouted at me to lay down and take it easy. He shot the bear twice, and the animal false charged Dave and then ran back into the woods.
"I sustained about five half-inch round punture wounds spread below my navel and around my left hip to my buttocks; a five-inch gash on the inner left leg and groin; a gash from the mid-cheek of my face to the top of my ear; and four to six entry wounds on my left arm from my own bullet."
300-400 lbs. is a relatively small grizzly; a .300 Winchester Magnum is a large and powerful weapon. The second story is from the same book, pages 178-183, told by the victim, Ben Moore. Again, I will pick up the story where the bear enters it.
"I came to a wide, open clearing, and I lifted my binoculars to glass for animals. Suddenly, I noticed a bear through the glasses, and my heart skipped a beat. The image was so close it was fuzzy. The bear was on the same ridge where I was standing, about one hundred feet away. At about the same time I put the binoculars down, the bear stood up on his hind legs with his head above the brush. It bobbed its head, opened its mouth and looked at me for severa secons, then dropped out of sight.
"I was a little startled, but not too concerned about being in danger. I've read quite a bit about bears and figured if I didn't react, the bear would move on. I relaxed, standing perfectly still. As I was glancing around, the brush exploded and I saw a ball of fur hurling toward me like it had been shot out of the bushes. I reached down and pulled out my revolver, a .357 Ruger single-action. By the time I drew and cocked my gun, the bear had practically reached the end of the barrel. I pulled the trigger, hitting the bear somewhere in the chest.
"Still the bear charged forward, grabbing me by my lower right leg as he ran by. He picked me up, swung me over his head and actually threw me like I was a feather pillow. I landed on a rock several feet away, barely hitting the ground before the bear was on top of me, chewing my upper right leg.
"Miraculously, I hadn't dropped my revolver and managed to get off another shot; but I was shaking so uncontrollably that I completely missed the bear. I struggled to cock the gun again, fired and hit the animal in the stomach, about a foot from my face. A huge hole opened up in its abdomen and blood poured from the wound, but the injury only angered the bear more. It grabbed me by the head, picked me up and shook. As I heard the bones in my face cracking, the bear dropped me. I fell on my back, staring up at the bear directly over me with its mouth open. The grizzly saw me move and came down for my head again. But as the bear lowered its head, I lifted my right arm, cocked the gun and jammed the pistol clear into its mouth. I pulled the trigger. The timing was perfect. When I fired that final shot, the pistol and my hands were in the bear's mouth.
"The bear shook its head and shuddered. It reared back and took a powerful swing at me with its paw. And, almost as if the bear knew what had caused the hurt, it tried to knock the gun out of the way, but I clasped it tightly with both hands. Then the bear staggered over the ridge and down into the brush."
"My nose was actually hanging off..."
A quick comparison in ballistics:
The energy of a .300 Winchester Magnum at 0 yards is between 3500 and 3800 ft-lb.
The energy of a .357 Magnum at 0 yards is between 400 and 625 ft-lb.
10 mm: 425-649 ft-lb.
.41 Magnum: 600-790 ft-lb.
.44 Magnum: 720-1035 ft-lb.
.45 ACP: 320-540 ft-lb.
.454 Casull: 938-1923 ft-lb.
This post is long enough, but quickly: The energy of a cartridge does make a difference in terms of penetration and damage. If a .300 Win. Mag. is able to glance off of a bear's skull or fragment and ricochet, how can anyone suspect that an inferior (less powerful) cartridge could possibly do any better? Carry the most powerful weapon possible. If someone would like, I could site stories in which bear spray successully repelled a bear.
In the book Arctic Homestead by Norma Cobb and Charles W. Sasser, Norma tells of her husband Les Cobb successfully killing charging grizzly bears with his .44 Magnum revolver on several occasions.
I remember reading an article in one of the gun rags several years ago. It talked about close-range testing of various firearms to determine their efficacy on charging bear. (If someone remembers the article or test in question, please chime in.)
Anyway, as in other types of "hunting"- yes, I know this is self-defense, but it's against a dangerous game animal- the velocity of the round had to be considered, along with construction. With some calibers, extreme close range made an effective hunting round a poor SD round, due to the higher velocity. A bullet that might work wonderfully at 150 yards might fragment at 5.
Since this was several years ago, the velocity problem is probably no longer an issue with premium bullets, but it's something to consider.
John
Anyway, as in other types of "hunting"- yes, I know this is self-defense, but it's against a dangerous game animal- the velocity of the round had to be considered, along with construction. With some calibers, extreme close range made an effective hunting round a poor SD round, due to the higher velocity. A bullet that might work wonderfully at 150 yards might fragment at 5.
Since this was several years ago, the velocity problem is probably no longer an issue with premium bullets, but it's something to consider.
John
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've been reading stories about bear attacks since somewhere back fifty-plus years ago.
Rifle? Pistol? Shotgun?
Sometimes any of the above; sometimes none of the above.
Luck. Puredee luck.
I joined on with TFL in 1998. Been reading lots of bear stories there and here from Alaskan residents. The consensus of their opinions over the years has been that a .44 Mag is a beginning, a minimum cartridge.
FWIW, Art
Rifle? Pistol? Shotgun?
Sometimes any of the above; sometimes none of the above.
Luck. Puredee luck.
I joined on with TFL in 1998. Been reading lots of bear stories there and here from Alaskan residents. The consensus of their opinions over the years has been that a .44 Mag is a beginning, a minimum cartridge.
FWIW, Art
Jashobeam,
thank you for sharing what you have found. I have little doubt that the stories are true. I have read many accounts of bears being unfazed by EVERY caliber of gun, with the possible exception of the 45-70.
Considering all the information above, I think there is no way to bear-proof yourself when going into their habitat. Its just not possible.
That being said, I'd change little of I have recommended. It seems there is little difference in the failure/success rate of handguns and rifles in repelling bear attacks, regardless of the huge differences in velocity and muzzle energy. Although I'd rather hunt a bear with a high-caliber rifle than a .40 cal Glock, I'm more likely to keep the glock at my side when fly-fishing. And when a bear is charging, it seems like little can stop him.
I guess the best solution I can think of is to have at least one friend with you, for both of you to have handguns, and both to have a rifle nearby.
Finally, both of you need good life insurance, because there are no guarantees with a big, charging bear...
thank you for sharing what you have found. I have little doubt that the stories are true. I have read many accounts of bears being unfazed by EVERY caliber of gun, with the possible exception of the 45-70.
Considering all the information above, I think there is no way to bear-proof yourself when going into their habitat. Its just not possible.
That being said, I'd change little of I have recommended. It seems there is little difference in the failure/success rate of handguns and rifles in repelling bear attacks, regardless of the huge differences in velocity and muzzle energy. Although I'd rather hunt a bear with a high-caliber rifle than a .40 cal Glock, I'm more likely to keep the glock at my side when fly-fishing. And when a bear is charging, it seems like little can stop him.
I guess the best solution I can think of is to have at least one friend with you, for both of you to have handguns, and both to have a rifle nearby.
Finally, both of you need good life insurance, because there are no guarantees with a big, charging bear...
Horsesense
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 565
There is no sure thing when it comes to bears…especially Grizzlies, bigger is always better!
That being said, about two years ago on the Russian River, a guy killed a charging sow griz, who was protecting her cub, with a 9mm! I don’t recommend that you try the same but it illustrates that anything can happen.
I also know of two grizzlies being killed with a .357 and one black bear that was on a killing spree, something like six dead people, and it was killed with a .38
Then there was the guy who shot a griz several times, point blank in the chest with a .44 mag and it didn’t stop it. His buddy shot it with a rifle and when they skinned it, they found the .44 slugs panicked on the breastbone, the guy was using hollow points.
All in all I would say that some of the key words to keep in mind are: luck, big heavy hard cast solid slugs, luck, shot placement, luck and the ability to shoot fast.
I have also heard of people using fire works to stop an aggressive griz.
PS: I wouldn't recommend a .45 to stop a charging griz, but I'm sure it would make for an interesting story.
That being said, about two years ago on the Russian River, a guy killed a charging sow griz, who was protecting her cub, with a 9mm! I don’t recommend that you try the same but it illustrates that anything can happen.
I also know of two grizzlies being killed with a .357 and one black bear that was on a killing spree, something like six dead people, and it was killed with a .38
Then there was the guy who shot a griz several times, point blank in the chest with a .44 mag and it didn’t stop it. His buddy shot it with a rifle and when they skinned it, they found the .44 slugs panicked on the breastbone, the guy was using hollow points.
All in all I would say that some of the key words to keep in mind are: luck, big heavy hard cast solid slugs, luck, shot placement, luck and the ability to shoot fast.
I have also heard of people using fire works to stop an aggressive griz.
PS: I wouldn't recommend a .45 to stop a charging griz, but I'm sure it would make for an interesting story.
horge
Member
.45 APC (!!!) on bears for self-defense
That's just vicious, hillbilly
Glad we don't have bears in this corner of Asia.
The crocs can be a handful, though.
That's just vicious, hillbilly
Glad we don't have bears in this corner of Asia.
The crocs can be a handful, though.
Shootcraps
Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,007
Yes, anything can happen. But do you want to roll those dice and bet your life on it?? I sure wouldn't because that's called a sucker bet.
That being said, about two years ago on the Russian River, a guy killed a charging sow griz, who was protecting her cub, with a 9mm! I don’t recommend that you try the same but it illustrates that anything can happen.
I was shocked at how many stories I found like that by running various google searches on bear attacks. The stories were typically newspaper accounts from Alaska.
If the above account is the same one I read, the guy was using 124 gr fmj ammo. He shot the bear in the shoulder, disabling the bear, and then he and the other fisherman finished the bear off with their handguns. His buddy had a shotgun, but could not get it raised fast enough to fire it, and ended up throwing the gun at the bear.
The inability of folks relying on long guns to shoulder and fire them fast enough to repel the attack was a common occurrance in my research.
-David
I was shocked at how many stories I found like that by running various google searches on bear attacks. The stories were typically newspaper accounts from Alaska.
If the above account is the same one I read, the guy was using 124 gr fmj ammo. He shot the bear in the shoulder, disabling the bear, and then he and the other fisherman finished the bear off with their handguns. His buddy had a shotgun, but could not get it raised fast enough to fire it, and ended up throwing the gun at the bear.
The inability of folks relying on long guns to shoulder and fire them fast enough to repel the attack was a common occurrance in my research.
-David
I had a bad expierience with a black bear and a 357. After it was all said and done the bear finally died but after only one of the rounds making it into the vitals. The others were cureled up just under the skin . The longest show was 20 feet. After that eye opening event, I gave my brother back his 357 and went a bought a dessert eagle 44mag and am very profissiant with it. I have a 45 also, but that is for fun and self defense only and not for the outdoors. Animals are way too resilliant and you need all of the help you can get.
. The longest show was 20 feet. After that eye opening event, I gave my brother back his 357 and went a bought a dessert eagle 44mag and am very profissiant with it. I have a 45 also, but that is for fun and self defense only and not for the outdoors. Animals are way too resilliant and you need all of the help you can get.Cosmoline
Member
What loads and bullets were you using? I've test-fired 200 grain hardcast .357 through dead moose for testing, and they drove right through no problem. It sounds like you were shooting 125 grain HP self defense rounds or something along those lines.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i know the guys from this incident. need to make a few clarifications.
the sow wasnt charging, it just got too close for comfort, most likely it was looking to snatch some of the fish that had already been caught (bears are learning that they can easily get fish strung on a line left by fishers who exit because of the bears presence). it did have a cub, not a young one though.
the first guy who saw it had a shotgun slung on his back, but couldnt remember if he had chambered a round, so he threw the shotgun at the bear and yelled for help, then dove into the river.
his two buddies turned around after hearing him yell, didnt see him diving underwater, only saw the bear. one had a ruger p89, the other a sks. both opened fire, as i recall 7 or 9 shots were fired. one of the bullets did indeed shatter the bears shoulder. a few more headshots were delivered to make sure the bear was dead. the 9mm rounds were indeed fmj, i forget if it was 124 or 147 gr.
although fish and game determined it was a good shoot, i am told that some of the locals were not convinced. by the guys own words, the bear was not charging, did not do any of the things an attacking bear normally does, but they were indeed in fear for their safety nonetheless.
oh yeah, they couldnt find the shotgun that was thrown, but a few weeks later another fisher hooked on to it. instead of trying to work the action, the angler aims the muzzle into the air, and pulls the trigger.
it was loaded.
Cosmoline,
158 gr jaketed soft pionts. There wasn't any hollowpoints I save those for home. I realize now that a good hard cast would have done the job, but I take no chances. I was young then but now am a bit older. I loaded up some 180 gr laser cast bullets, have you tried those?
158 gr jaketed soft pionts. There wasn't any hollowpoints I save those for home. I realize now that a good hard cast would have done the job, but I take no chances. I was young then but now am a bit older. I loaded up some 180 gr laser cast bullets, have you tried those?
I will add my two anecdotes
First case, as told in Elmer Keith book, related that one of his hunting companions killed a grizz with a 9mm Luger.
Second case is one that I saw on TV. Park ranger was releasing a trapped grizz from a big round container. He pulled up the door while standing on top of the trap about 6-7 ft. off the ground. Bear came out and promptly pulled him off the top of the trap. He defended himself with a .357 mag. handgun and killed the bear. I have carried both .357 and .45 acp in bear country, since they were the only choices I had at the time in handguns. Didn't have to use them. They were carried using the "any gun is better than no gun" theory.
That said, if one has a choice, a heavy caliber such as .44 mag mimimum is much more sensible, and is the logical choice. These too are not adequate for a fast stop without a CNS hit, but if handgun is the only choice, that is the intelligent route to go.
First case, as told in Elmer Keith book, related that one of his hunting companions killed a grizz with a 9mm Luger.
Second case is one that I saw on TV. Park ranger was releasing a trapped grizz from a big round container. He pulled up the door while standing on top of the trap about 6-7 ft. off the ground. Bear came out and promptly pulled him off the top of the trap. He defended himself with a .357 mag. handgun and killed the bear. I have carried both .357 and .45 acp in bear country, since they were the only choices I had at the time in handguns. Didn't have to use them. They were carried using the "any gun is better than no gun" theory.
That said, if one has a choice, a heavy caliber such as .44 mag mimimum is much more sensible, and is the logical choice. These too are not adequate for a fast stop without a CNS hit, but if handgun is the only choice, that is the intelligent route to go.
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