.45 Colt Dirty Brass Solution

[Ed Gallop]

Several years ago I started loading .452 RNFP with Unique in my Pietta 45 Colt and the brass was about 80 to 90% blackened by blow-back. I slugged the barrel and it was .454 so I cast .454 with some improvement. I later started using Trail Boss with a little more improvement (less than 50% was blackened). It eventually cleaned off in the vibrator so wasn't a big problem, but it was puzzling.

I know .45 Colt's reputation for dirty brass, but not to that extent. I thought the Pietta chambers were oversized so just lived with it. I used Winchester, Remington, and Starline brass. All three were sized before use when new. Yesterday, a new shipment of Starline came in and I measured it at .473" diameter. My Lee carbide die sized to .469".

I wondered if the .004" made a difference so sized 10 and left 10 unsized, with the same loads. The sized brass were about 30% blackened (brass not showing through). The unsized were only about 20% smoked (brass shined through). My cleaning time is now a fraction of what it used to be.

I am convinced the Lee carbide die is sizing too small. Unsized brass fit too tight after firing so I'll buy a new sizing die if they size larger that .469". I would be very grateful if anyone sizing .45 Colt with other than Lee dies could provide the diameter of their sized brass. It sure would help. Ed.

 

[Walkalong]

My sizer is RCBS. I just checked a couple of sized Winchester .45 Colt brass and they measured .469 to .469plus, but less than .470.

 

[zxcvbob]

If you only resize the top 40% (-ish) of the brass, is it still too tight?

 

[Ed Gallop]

Thanks Walkalong. The Lee was running between .468 and .469 so the RCBS is slightly larger. But I doubt would solve my problem. Wondering if your brass is blackened or smoked?

I haven't tried sizing only the top 40% but will the first chance I get. Thanks. Ed..

 

[Walkalong]

Many loads blacken the cases from not having enough pressure to expand the brass to seal the chamber. If you want to keep the cases cleaner, you will have to up the pressure. One way to do this without exceeding the velocity you want is to go with a faster powder.

Red Dot, AA #2, American Select, 700X,......

 

[Ed Gallop]

I favor maximum loads and the blackened brass was worse with Unique than Trail Boss. I believe Pietta's cylinders are bored too large. If you have a Pietta, and the problem doesn't exist, then I'll suspect the Lee sizer is too small.

 

[Red Cent]

Walkalong is correct. Another way to reduce blowback is a very firm roll crimp. 'Course, this is for straight wall pistol cartridge. Go get you a 38-40, a 32-20, or a 44-40 and you should not have the problem. The crimp will hold the bullet (hopefully) until the case has expanded and seals.
In cowboy most all of us use light loads. The firm roll crimp generally solves it.
The combination of a warm load with firm crimp should take care of it.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

RCBS dies with Top Brass, fired 1 to 5 times. .478 before sizing, . 471-.472 after.

You might check with RCBS about their Cowboy dies, they are advertised as being sized for lead bullets.

 

[EddieNFL]

I've just encountered the same problem. Recently purchased a new Blackhawk and have settled on 5.5 of TB under a 250 RNFP. The cases are pretty dirty, even with a very firm crimp. Not as bad as the Clays, Unique and Autocomp loads I tried, though. Overnight in the tumbler took care of them.

 

[EddieNFL]

RCBS dies with Top Brass, fired 1 to 5 times. .478 before sizing, . 471-.472 after.

You might check with RCBS about their Cowboy dies, they are advertised as being sized for lead bullets.

Hornady dies are so sized. The one I have provides so little neck tension, I can seat the bullets (0.4525") by hand. Hornady said they were sending a different sizer, but haven't seen it, yet. I've been using a .45ACP die.

 

[highlander 5]

I use 231 and a 250 gr cast bullet of various types using either Dillon or RCBS dies and have no problem with black cases. Might I suggest trying the shorter Schofield case it should eliminate the problem. I've used Starline brass with 230 -250 rnfp with very good results out of 3 Rugers,2 Blackhawks and a Redhawk.

 

[Walkalong]

The ID of the carbide ring in my .45 Colt sizer is .466.

The ID's on the carbide rings in my .45 ACP sizers are .465, .463, & .461. I use the .463 sizer. The .465 sizer will not work with thin Remington brass.

Bet you are getting some serious neck tension using the .45 ACP die.

I am convinced the Lee carbide die is sizing too small. Unsized brass fit too tight after firing

This doesn't add up for me. What makes brass tight in the chambers is over pressure, tight chambers, or rough chambers, not starting smaller than needed.

I wonder if the tightness in the chamber is from all the crud on the fired cases. Been there done that one in .45 Colt.

Anyway, going bigger with the sizer will give less neck tension which will hurt vs help the cases expand and seal the chambers.

Everything else Ed posted points towards too little pressure, so I now I am curious as to what the load is. I still think his pressure is real low.

 

[Ed Gallop]

I've been loading maximum loads of Trail Boss but maybe my crimp isn't tight enough (as mentioned). The crimp goes into the groove but it is a deep groove. I'll get a factory crimp die as I have for most other calibers. That may work.

I deprimed by hand, cleaned, and did not size 6 Starline rounds I recently fired. The .454 bullet slid in the brass without resistance and they were very loose after crimping.

The fired unsized and cleaned cartridges slipped into the cylinder just fine. It could have been the crud that caused the occasional tight fitting brass before.

It also may be the Heritage cylinder. I should have spent the extra for a Ruger or Blackhawk. Knowing the blackened brass doesn't occur when unsized new brass leads me to think Jesse may have the answer. I'll get an RCBS cowboy die. I'll also get a factory crimp die. Thanks to all that offered information. You have been a big help. Ed.

 

[CraigC]

What exactly is your load? The more details you provide the easier it will be to solve your problem. What were your loads with Unique? Sounds like either the pressure is too low for the cases to expand and seal off the chambers or your chambers are more oversized than is usual for the .45Colt. If you're shooting mousefart gamer loads, it's just something you'll have to live with.

 

[EddieNFL]

The ID of the carbide ring in my .45 Colt sizer is .466.

Mine measures .470". The expander from the same die set will slip into a sized case with no resistance.

The ID's on the carbide rings in my .45 ACP sizers are .465, .463, & .461. I use the .463 sizer. Bet you are getting some serious neck tension using the .45 ACP die. The .465 sizer will not work with thin Remington brass.

I measured two Dillon, one each Hornady, RCBS and Lee dies. Measurements ranged from .463" to .466". The Dillon (.466") is what I used on W-W brass. I used the Hornady expander (can't be measured) and loaded .452" bullets. The neck tension "felt" normal, but I didn't do before and after measurements (next time).

I have not slugged the bore, but I got a decent SD of 16 (20 rounds) and 25 yard accuracy was very good; first group was just over 2.5 inches off-hand. Also, the bore was clean as a whistle after 100 rounds. I understand newer barrels are .452 versus .454.

Only problem I've experienced is it shoots six inches high with the sight all the way down. Looking at the front sight, it appears to be a non-removable blade.

 

[Ed Gallop]

I shoot mostly .454 RNFP with 6.0 gr Trail Boss. If the cast is lighter I add more to try for the same velocity. It has been a couple years since I used Unique in the 45 Colt so I don't remember. However, I loaded the maximum from one of the books I have. There seemed to be an improvement when I switched from Unique to Trail Boss and an improvement when I switched from .452 SWC to .454 RNFP (about the same time) but the brass was still pretty bad. The only real big improvement is when I used new un-sized Starline brass 2 days ago. It was .004" wider than the sized brass. The brass was smoked, not blackened, and cleaned off in a small fraction of time. I have always used Lee dies. Wish I knew someone with a Pietta Rough Rider 45 Colt to see if the same problem exist. Hopefully a factory crimp will work, especially if I don't have to size the brass. Ed.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I'm curios as to the size of the cylinder bore. Sizing the bullet for the cylinder bore could help if the bore is too big.

 

[Walkalong]

The ID of the carbide ring in my .45 Colt sizer is .466.

Mine measures .470". The expander from the same die set will slip into a sized case with no resistance.

I have no doubt.

 

[EddieNFL]

Yeah, kinda odd they changed the sizer, but not the expander. ???

 

[Walkalong]

No need for expansion with that sizer size I reckon, just some belling.

 

[EddieNFL]

I guess so. They obviously make dies for .454 and .452. You would think this would be advertised.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Low pressures equal dirty brass. Like Walkalong said, the low pressure stuff doesn't expand it enough. I shot some loads from my .45 Colt with Trail Boss and the cases were all cloudy too. Then I loaded up some "Ruger Only" wrist breakers, and the cases came out looking brand new. There was hardly anything on them. Of course there were black flecks of rubber from the Pachmyer grips imbedded in my palm, but that's not the point.

 

[Ed Gallop]

Your posts has me approaching this blowback puzzle differently. I measured the cylinder chambers, new unsized brass, fired unsized brass, and sized brass.

- Cylinder Chamber is .488 to .489 and .450 to .451 at barrel end.
- New unsized Brass is .474 to .475 midway and .477 over base of cast .454 bullet (sized and lubed).
- Fired unsized Brass is .480 to .482 midway and .477 over bullet.
- Sized Brass is .469 to .470 midway and .477 over bullet.

New unsized and fired unsized brass only smokes the spent casings but sized brass heavily blackens them.

If I do not size fired brass the bullet seats loose and although the roll crimp is well into the groove the bullet will turn by hand. I could crimp deeper but it may be hard on the brass. Another reason for a factory crimp die?

I load at maximum powder charge (6.0 gr Trail Boss) with 250 gr. LRFN so doubt blowback is caused by powder causing low pressure. But the crimp may be too loose. It curls down well into groove and holds tight if brass is new or sized.

Have I left out anything needed to solve this problem of heavily blackened brass? Will a RCBS Cowboy sizing die and factory crimp die be a solution?

 

[zxcvbob]

I load at maximum powder charge (6.0 gr Trail Boss) with 150 gr. LRFN so doubt blowback is caused by powder causing low pressure. But the crimp may be too loose. It curls down well into groove and holds tight if brass is new or sized.

Is that a typo? Or do you really have 150 grain bullets? Ultra-light bullets might be your problem.

 

[Walkalong]

Have I left out anything needed to solve this problem of heavily blackened brass? Will a RCBS Cowboy sizing die and factory crimp die be a solution?

No, it won't.

A faster powder to get the desired velocity will do it. More pressure for a shorter time.

Clays, Red Dot, American Select, 700X, AA #2 (My Favorite)

Or do you really have 150 grain bullets?

Just noticed that. Yep, gonna be tougher, but doable.