midland man
Member
so is the 45 colt and 45 acp have the same power? what you guys think?? 
45 colt vs 45 acp are they the same in power??
- Thread starter midland man
- Start date
- Status
ljnowell
Member
Yes and no. That's the easiest answer.
Only if you are shooting the same bullet weight at the same velocity. That can be done.
You are using power in such a way that it is undefined and could cover anything. There are lots of way to consider "power" pick a formula. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics) I like to use momentum as a comparision for cartridges because momentum is conserved. Momentum is mass times velocity.
If you are using a standard 45 LC round with a 250 grain bullet at 900 fps, it is obvious that will have more momentum than a 45 ACP using a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps.
You are using power in such a way that it is undefined and could cover anything. There are lots of way to consider "power" pick a formula. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics) I like to use momentum as a comparision for cartridges because momentum is conserved. Momentum is mass times velocity.
If you are using a standard 45 LC round with a 250 grain bullet at 900 fps, it is obvious that will have more momentum than a 45 ACP using a 230 grain bullet at 900 fps.
Lost Sheep
Member
Yes, and no
Historically, the 45 ACP was intended (and the government specifications were written to that effect) to be the equivalent of the 45 Colt as used in the late 19th Century in the SAA (Single Action Army) revolver as used by the U.S. Army and Cavalry.
So, "Yes".
On the "No" side: The 45 Colt in modern guns with more robust frames and cylinders of stronger steels can better the performance of the old black-powder and early smokeless powder power levels used historically.
Note that balloon head cases used in the late 19th century are no longer manufactured and that the much stronger solid head cases are the current standard for 45 Colt cartridge cases.
Dick Casull developed is eponymous cartridge using (modern manufacture) 45 Colt cartridge cases. Testimony for the strength of the modern cases.
The so-called "Ruger-only" loads we (can) use today would prematurely wear or even blow apart the guns that fired the cartridge the 45 ACP replaced.
So, modern 45 Colt ammunition in modern guns (not antiques and not replicas) can be more powerful than 45 ACP of the early 20th Century, which was never intended to be more powerful than the 19th Century 45 Colt.
Enter the 45 Super and 45 Rowland.
Lost Sheep
Historically, the 45 ACP was intended (and the government specifications were written to that effect) to be the equivalent of the 45 Colt as used in the late 19th Century in the SAA (Single Action Army) revolver as used by the U.S. Army and Cavalry.
So, "Yes".
On the "No" side: The 45 Colt in modern guns with more robust frames and cylinders of stronger steels can better the performance of the old black-powder and early smokeless powder power levels used historically.
Note that balloon head cases used in the late 19th century are no longer manufactured and that the much stronger solid head cases are the current standard for 45 Colt cartridge cases.
Dick Casull developed is eponymous cartridge using (modern manufacture) 45 Colt cartridge cases. Testimony for the strength of the modern cases.
The so-called "Ruger-only" loads we (can) use today would prematurely wear or even blow apart the guns that fired the cartridge the 45 ACP replaced.
So, modern 45 Colt ammunition in modern guns (not antiques and not replicas) can be more powerful than 45 ACP of the early 20th Century, which was never intended to be more powerful than the 19th Century 45 Colt.
Enter the 45 Super and 45 Rowland.
Lost Sheep
ReloaderFred
Member
If you want to find out, buy a Ruger Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt/.45 acp. I can load the .45 Colt to power levels in my Blackhawk, with bullets up to 300 grains, that will strain your hand when fired. The .45 acp normally is limited to 230 grain bullets at the top end, but you can load heavier bullets in the Blackhawk, but they won't approach the heavy bullets from the .45 Colt in power.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Hope this helps.
Fred
Hondo 60
Member
What SlamFire1 said!
You can reload them so they match power, or you can make them totally different.
That's the beauty of reloading
gamestalker
member
Well, you would either have to down load one, or load to full tilt with the other, but it could probably be accomplished, or at least get close.
There are lots of variations by which to compare the two, but in a comparison using jacketed bullets it would be difficult to do, as they don't generally use the same bullets per say. One is a large revolver cartridge, and it can be loaded with magnum revolver powders, and it operates at high pressures, that would be the 45 Colt Ruger / Contender loads.
The 45 ACP cartridge is a low pressure cartridge, and it doesn't have the ability to achieve the velocities that of the Colt with Ruger / Freedom Arms / Contender loads, which can operate at magnum pressures.
The Colt can operate at pressures exceeding 30,000 psi with a published max velocity of 1594 fps., per Hodgdon.
The ACP operates at maximum pressures of around 20,000 psi. with a max velocity of 908 fps, according to Hodgdon using the Hornady 230 gr. FMJ.
Two different cartridge designs, with two very different operating pressures.
GS
There are lots of variations by which to compare the two, but in a comparison using jacketed bullets it would be difficult to do, as they don't generally use the same bullets per say. One is a large revolver cartridge, and it can be loaded with magnum revolver powders, and it operates at high pressures, that would be the 45 Colt Ruger / Contender loads.
The 45 ACP cartridge is a low pressure cartridge, and it doesn't have the ability to achieve the velocities that of the Colt with Ruger / Freedom Arms / Contender loads, which can operate at magnum pressures.
The Colt can operate at pressures exceeding 30,000 psi with a published max velocity of 1594 fps., per Hodgdon.
The ACP operates at maximum pressures of around 20,000 psi. with a max velocity of 908 fps, according to Hodgdon using the Hornady 230 gr. FMJ.
Two different cartridge designs, with two very different operating pressures.
GS
Jim Watson
Member
I think Lost Sheep is the closest.
The .45 Auto was specified to equal the ballistics of the .45 revolver.
The question is WHICH revolver?
The original .45-40-250
The USGI .45-30-250
The 1880s commercial .45-35-250
The .45 Gov't (S&W Schofield) .45-28-250
The .45 1909 New Service big rim smokeless.
A SAA with 7.5" barrel and 40 grains of black in a folded head case will likely exceed 900 fps.
A 1909 New Service with its mild load of RSQ smokeless is only doing 725 fps with the usual 255 gr revolver bullet.
Commercial smokeless .45 Colt was listed at 850 fps until the present crop of Cowboy crap got common.
The original 1905 Colt .45 Rimless Smokeless was cataloged as a 200 gr bullet at 900 fps, but I kind of doubt it actually delivered that.
.45 Gov't Auto from 1906 to .45 ACP 1911 has been variously listed as a 230 gr bullet at 810, 825, 830 and 850 fps.
I think the category of overloaded "Ruger only" .45 Colt is too great a departure from baseline specifications.
The .45 Auto was specified to equal the ballistics of the .45 revolver.
The question is WHICH revolver?
The original .45-40-250
The USGI .45-30-250
The 1880s commercial .45-35-250
The .45 Gov't (S&W Schofield) .45-28-250
The .45 1909 New Service big rim smokeless.
A SAA with 7.5" barrel and 40 grains of black in a folded head case will likely exceed 900 fps.
A 1909 New Service with its mild load of RSQ smokeless is only doing 725 fps with the usual 255 gr revolver bullet.
Commercial smokeless .45 Colt was listed at 850 fps until the present crop of Cowboy crap got common.
The original 1905 Colt .45 Rimless Smokeless was cataloged as a 200 gr bullet at 900 fps, but I kind of doubt it actually delivered that.
.45 Gov't Auto from 1906 to .45 ACP 1911 has been variously listed as a 230 gr bullet at 810, 825, 830 and 850 fps.
I think the category of overloaded "Ruger only" .45 Colt is too great a departure from baseline specifications.
So both Yes and No, but mostly No. Anyhow the tale Ive read was that J. Browning had a hand in the overall workup of the system, the requirements being a cartridge ballistically compatible with the manstopping 45 Colt. Autoloaders were the cutting edge of the time. The cartridge was developed to fit in a magazine, but still be a manstopper. This required shortening the bullet to 230 gr. Supposedly they shortened the bullet to a specific length and this resulted in 230 gr, not the other way around. Physics today are the same as physics in 1908(+or- the year) so a short case and a short bullet can't equal a big case and a big bullet. Remember the 45 colt was the most powerful factory rendition until the 357 magnum was born. We won't mention the Walker Colt. Its only my 0.02$.
There are many articles on the 45 Colt here is a pretty good one.
http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=1
http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=1
zxcvbob
Member
In standard loadings, they are pretty close.
.45ACP give you almost .45 Colt performance in a smaller, rimless package.
.45ACP give you almost .45 Colt performance in a smaller, rimless package.
gamestalker
member
I suppose I took the question to mean that when each of those cartridges is taken to it's absolute published potential, the Colt will easily out perform the ACP with regard to velocity, hands down. The way the question was posed was rather broad though, and as such, the answer I delivered was based on the key words, is one more powerful than the other. Well yes, if the sought factor is optimum potential velocity or power, while comparing the best of both in terms of firearm model and design, and published data.
GS
GS
zxcvbob
Member
You should be comparing .45 Super or even .460 Rowland to the .45 Colt "Ruger" loads then.
gamestalker
member
Well ya, but the question was broad and posed toward ACP and Colt. And sice the question was aimed at most powerful, well, I considered it to refer to top end loads for each.
GS
GS
Lost Sheep
Member
What say you, MidlandMan? Were you posting the original question to compare the historical 45 Colt to to the historical 45 ACP or do you want to include the upgrades we have seen in the past 100 years, like the 45 Super (same cartridge dimensions as the 45 ACP, after all, but requiring stronger recoil spring and tougher steel than we had a century ago) and the "Ruger Only" loadings (which requires stronger frames and cylinders than we had a century ago, as well as solid head cases.)
Lost Sheep
OP
OP
midland man
Member
yes all modern guns and ammo with newer 45 colt vs 45acp?
Lost Sheep
Member
Then I change my answer: A hot 45 Colt out of a Thompson Contender, Freedom Arms, Linebaugh, Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk or any modern gun that can contain the pressure will blow the doors off of any 45 ACP (even the 45 Super).
I would quote my loading manuals, but you have access to the same data and I am due to a friend's house soon.
Witness that people regularly take bears and other medium to large game with 45 Colt but you don't see anyone recommending going on a hunt for bear with 45 ACP as the primary weapon (except for a few wild men who might think of peccary or wild pigs)
Lost Sheep
I never could determine for sure where my SW M 25 high dash with IL Mountain Gun stood in the reloading scheme of things.??
First way call it a Mt Gun if it will only shoot standard loads?. It's a new N frame. No i do not think it is near as strong as a Ruger Red or Black Hawk but can it take Ruger loads once and a while??
I do not plan or ever have thought of it as a M 629 44 Mag.
First way call it a Mt Gun if it will only shoot standard loads?. It's a new N frame. No i do not think it is near as strong as a Ruger Red or Black Hawk but can it take Ruger loads once and a while??
I do not plan or ever have thought of it as a M 629 44 Mag.
Lost Sheep said:
Yup.
It's already been mentioned, but old doesn't mean weak. I recall someone saying once that "The Old 45 Long Colt is much less dangerous than a 45acp" to which I replied "so you'd rather get hit by 250 gr of lead going 900 fps than 230 gr of lead going 900 fps? Now we could argue bullet types and whatnot and switch things around a bit, but the 45acp is the little brother to the 45 Colt in the same way the 308 is to the 30-06.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No, your S&W N-Frame will not take 'Ruger Only' loads.
The N-Frame S&W will take 20,000+ PSI loads.
Same as the same guns in .45 ACP will take +P .45 ACP ammo at 23,000 PSI.
Here is a good read on the three levels of .45 Colt, and which guns are suitable for each level.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/pdf/hl 246partial.pdf
As you can see, it's pretty easy to get close to 1,000 FPS out of a 285 grain SWC.
That will handle about anything a mountain will throw at you!
rc
Lets clear up some things so that everyone is on the the same sheet and for the sake of posterity as well. There is a lot of misinformation that gets regurgitated when it comes to the history of the .45 Colt. The only person I'm aware that is a true wealth of knowledge on this cartridge is Mike Venturino, he has written several books on the Colt SAA and the cartridges chambered for it. He is well known in the indusrty as "THE" subject matter expert where the Colt SAA is concerned and who I consider the last word on the subject. He did an article in Handloader #252 issue "Reloadable Handgun Cartridges", I'm looking at it as I type this.
Mr. Ventuino states that and I'm paraphrasing here "common misconception is the the .45 Colt was factory loaded with 40gr of BP. Indeed some early ammunition was, but the civilian factory ammo was was very quickly reduced to 35gr due to the weak wrought iron frames of the early guns. Building back up to 38gr of BP by Winchester's 1899 catalog, by that time Colt was using steel frames. The military went all the way down to a 30gr charge, with 250gr, inside lubed, conical bullet. Another misconception is that the .45 Colt was standard issue of the military from its adoption in 1873 until 1892 when it was dropped in favor of the .38 Colt. It is true that the military used Colt SAA but the Official issue cartridge was the shorter .45 S&W Scofield round. Orders were issued in early August 1874 for Frankford arsenal to only load the shorter cartridge which was done well into the 1880s. As loaded by the the U.S. military, the .45 S&W carried a 230gr bullet over 28gr of BP, but according to Winchester's 1899 catalog, bullet weight was increased to 250gr and the powder charge to 30gr".
The .45 ACP when first brought forth by John Browning was with a 200gr bullet, however the military rejected that and specified the cartridge use a 230gr bullet. Hmmm sound familiar....? Yup they were very familiar with and liked the performance of the 230gr .45 cal bullet as was used in past years. So basically the the .45 ACP was nothing more than a slightly spiced up .45 S&W that was housed in a new fangaled modern auto pistol. And the rest as they is history.
Mr. Ventuino states that and I'm paraphrasing here "common misconception is the the .45 Colt was factory loaded with 40gr of BP. Indeed some early ammunition was, but the civilian factory ammo was was very quickly reduced to 35gr due to the weak wrought iron frames of the early guns. Building back up to 38gr of BP by Winchester's 1899 catalog, by that time Colt was using steel frames. The military went all the way down to a 30gr charge, with 250gr, inside lubed, conical bullet. Another misconception is that the .45 Colt was standard issue of the military from its adoption in 1873 until 1892 when it was dropped in favor of the .38 Colt. It is true that the military used Colt SAA but the Official issue cartridge was the shorter .45 S&W Scofield round. Orders were issued in early August 1874 for Frankford arsenal to only load the shorter cartridge which was done well into the 1880s. As loaded by the the U.S. military, the .45 S&W carried a 230gr bullet over 28gr of BP, but according to Winchester's 1899 catalog, bullet weight was increased to 250gr and the powder charge to 30gr".
The .45 ACP when first brought forth by John Browning was with a 200gr bullet, however the military rejected that and specified the cartridge use a 230gr bullet. Hmmm sound familiar....? Yup they were very familiar with and liked the performance of the 230gr .45 cal bullet as was used in past years. So basically the the .45 ACP was nothing more than a slightly spiced up .45 S&W that was housed in a new fangaled modern auto pistol. And the rest as they is history.
RC
Thanks. I downloaded it.
I do have the Linebaugh article but had not seen this one. I usally load 9gr of Unique which is more than sufficient for the Mountains here in Florida
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
9.0 grains Unique equals the early black powder load that made the .45 Colt famous!
900 +\- depending on barrel length.
It will handle about anything you need to handle in the 48 states in the USA.
rc
900 +\- depending on barrel length.
It will handle about anything you need to handle in the 48 states in the USA.
rc
- Status
Similar threads
