45 undersized die

JCSC

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I know the proper answer to this question, but would you expect a proven load to change when switching from a standard to undersize die.

I wouldn’t expect any more variation than I already have with range brass.

Of course I will run a handful thru the gun before I load 500.
 
CQB.

I had concerns about setback and I do not see any harm in standardizing with the undersize die. It may wear and work brass quicker, but I’d rather have the neck tension.

I could get by without it and be cautious of chambering the same round multiple times, but I’d rather change this step and be done with it.

It’s only an issue with the 185 and 200 grain bullets with minimal bearing surface.
 
CQB.

I had concerns about setback and I do not see any harm in standardizing with the undersize die. It may wear and work brass quicker, but I’d rather have the neck tension.

I could get by without it and be cautious of chambering the same round multiple times, but I’d rather change this step and be done with it.

It’s only an issue with the 185 and 200 grain bullets with minimal bearing surface.
I started using in 45acp & 9mm a few months ago as insurance against set back.

I haven’t had any bad experiences—works just like the standard.

Just for fun read through this thread:

Not everyone feels the same:)
 
I know the proper answer to this question, but would you expect a proven load to change when switching from a standard to undersize die.

I wouldn’t expect any more variation than I already have with range brass.

Of course I will run a handful thru the gun before I load 500.
If you think it will work better for you, then do it.......... :thumbup:

However, soon you will get many responses as to why it won't/ can't/ shouldn't/ is wasteful/ is unnecessary/ "I don't use it, therefore you shouldn't use it"/ it's stupid/ you should be using BRAND D press, ect., ect., ect...................:scrutiny::cool:

Research the other thread about them as there are a FEW useful comments......

I don't think it would make matters any worse.....................IMO.............
 
If you think it will work better for you, then do it.......... :thumbup:

However, soon you will get many responses as to why it won't/ can't/ shouldn't/ is wasteful/ is unnecessary/ "I don't use it, therefore you shouldn't use it"/ it's stupid/ you should be using BRAND D press, ect., ect., ect...................:scrutiny::cool:

Research the other thread about them as there are a FEW useful comments......

I don't think it would make matters any worse.....................IMO.............
😂😂😂
 
So far Im only loading .452. When I aquire some .451 projectiles I will get one of those dyes. Good job. Most people reload 45auto the wrong way.
 
The only set back problems I have ever had with either 9mm or 45acp came from cycling the same round through my 1911's over and over again and this was with factory ammo. This is normal. Never had a problem with set back on my reloads. If you don't have a problem with set back there is no reason to fix it. There was life before undersize dies.
 
Agree I could get by without it. I have done several set back checks on 5 different projectiles now. It happens. Do it 10 times in a row and you will pop the bullet back in the case.

Mixed brass give me very inconsistent seating, flaring feel and I want that extra consistency y.

I’m going to take the extra insurance, unless this die gives me some other unfavorable result.
 
I know the proper answer to this question, but would you expect a proven load to change when switching from a standard to undersize die.

I wouldn’t expect any more variation than I already have with range brass.

Of course I will run a handful thru the gun before I load 500.
Well, I think the old advice to consider it a component change and work up a new load is probably not terrible - but it is not terribly necessary. I would drop a half grain and check your accuracy. You will probably end up adding it back but if you get good groups at a lower charge, go with it.
 
Well, I think the old advice to consider it a component change and work up a new load is probably not terrible - but it is not terribly necessary. I would drop a half grain and check your accuracy. You will probably end up adding it back but if you get good groups at a lower charge, go with it.
I think you’re right.

After I said I didn’t change anything I realized well that wasn’t smart! Not just saying it but not doing it.

Then I rationalized by saying to myself well I don’t load maximum loads anyway.
 
Agree I could get by without it. I have done several set back checks on 5 different projectiles now. It happens. Do it 10 times in a row and you will pop the bullet back in the case.

Mixed brass give me very inconsistent seating, flaring feel and I want that extra consistency y.

I’m going to take the extra insurance, unless this die gives me some other unfavorable result.
As I said, I use undersized dies for 9mm & 45acp. Have since May-June. Insurance against set back.

No regrets but I’d also say its benefits are probably overstated. If I knew in May what I know now I guess I’d still buy them but only because they’re cheap and might deliver as promised while doing no harm.

I do perceive a more consistent firmer feel when expanding and seating. Is it real though?

At the same time, the anti-undersized die folks seem to overstate any negatives. You really won’t find more than opinions.

If you haven’t already, please do read the other thread—that’s as negative as you’ll see.

Remember if tension is your goal and you’re still using same expander (like I am) how can you really be getting increased tension?

My bottom line though really is they’re like chicken soup, can’t hurt.
 
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The undersized sizer die, or "the U die", is like any other variable, you have to test with and without. If you don't, it's a waste of time and we're just guessing. Some people use them for a specific purpose where they have had sizer issues and report success. Some have tried them and found them unnecessary for their application. Some have tested them and found little to no difference.

You need a reason to try them, which is poor neck tension traced to the sizer being too large. It has been properly suggested to test the other variables and making sure it is indeed a sizer issue before going that route.

I have tried the U die in two different applications, finding that they didn't really solve the issue, and ended up solving it another way. YMMV, you just have to test things carefully. Others here have found them to be the cure in their application (Their dies, their press, their bullets, etc) and have happily announced the problem solved.

IMHO, they are not going to be needed the vast majority of the time. The die makers, bullet makers, etc, really do a fine job putting out quality products that work the vast majority of the time. They also have some of the best customer service out there.

Neck tension is case wall thickness, sizer die inner dimensions, and expander outer dimensions. If we lack proper neck tension, one or more of those things is guilty. It's our job to narrow it down and be sure before we buy different dies etc.
 
The undersized sizer die, or "the U die", is like any other variable, you have to test with and without. If you don't, it's a waste of time and we're just guessing. Some people use them for a specific purpose where they have had sizer issues and report success. Some have tried them and found them unnecessary for their application. Some have tested them and found little to no difference.

You need a reason to try them, which is poor neck tension traced to the sizer being too large. It has been properly suggested to test the other variables and making sure it is indeed a sizer issue before going that route.

I have tried the U die in two different applications, finding that they didn't really solve the issue, and ended up solving it another way. YMMV, you just have to test things carefully. Others here have found them to be the cure in their application (Their dies, their press, their bullets, etc) and have happily announced the problem solved.

IMHO, they are not going to be needed the vast majority of the time. The die makers, bullet makers, etc, really do a fine job putting out quality products that work the vast majority of the time. They also have some of the best customer service out there.

Neck tension is case wall thickness, sizer die inner dimensions, and expander outer dimensions. If we lack proper neck tension, one or more of those things is guilty. It's our job to narrow it down and be sure before we buy different dies etc.
Couldn’t agree more.
 
Well, we won’t know the right way until you tell us how you do it. ;)
I agree!

I would argue that I know how to load pistol ammo. My issue is the use of range brass and 451 plated bullets.

Like CQB said. “Chicken soup”

Even if it does absolutely nothing, it adds no time or harm to the process. It may however stop a set back and me blowing my face off.
 
I agree!

I would argue that I know how to load pistol ammo. My issue is the use of range brass and 451 plated bullets.

Like CQB said. “Chicken soup”

Even if it does absolutely nothing, it adds no time or harm to the process. It may however stop a set back and me blowing my face off.
Before I bought mine I looked for two primary negative things—if used as intended 1) was the ammo safe and 2) could it damage my firearm. Verifiable bad answers were show stoppers of course but there were none.

On the other thread the potential damage issue was mentioned briefly. Might want to check that out.

All the rest is personal judgment and opinion. IMHO
 
Well, we won’t know the right way until you tell us how you do it. ;)
Oh yea. I meant people crimp when reloading tool manufacturers literally suggest not to because they headspace at the case mouth. Crimping might also require trimming eventually and are unnecessary. I know it can be done, its up to the reloader. If the rounds are reliable for them and thats all that matters, its no big deal. The manufacturers just make the suggestion probably based on making reliable reloads for any handgun, like the way it should be.
Either way, most people crimping think they are crimping when they really are not, or not enough to make a difference at least. They really are just sizing down the neck instead of the whole case. To me, the right way would be that the rounds will work in just about any mass produced 45acp handgun that factory ammunition will normally function reliably in as well.
 
Oh yea. I meant people crimp when reloading tool manufacturers literally suggest not to because they headspace at the case mouth. Crimping might also require trimming eventually and are unnecessary.

I have a 1911 Kimber 45acp that has to have the ammo crimped. A taper crimp set to .469" may or may not fully chamber, so I crimp at .468"-.4685" for reliable chambering. I do not roll crimp any semi-auto ammo.

I have another 45acp (also Kimber) that has a much more generous chamber. If I load ammo for this gun, it won't chamber in the other, so I load for the tighter chamber and call it good.

FWIW I plunk and twist every round in that tighter chamber.

What works for you may not work for someone else, and vice versa.

chris
 
I have a 1911 Kimber 45acp that has to have the ammo crimped. A taper crimp set to .469" may or may not fully chamber, so I crimp at .468"-.4685" for reliable chambering. I do not roll crimp any semi-auto ammo.

I have another 45acp (also Kimber) that has a much more generous chamber. If I load ammo for this gun, it won't chamber in the other, so I load for the tighter chamber and call it good.

FWIW I plunk and twist every round in that tighter chamber.

What works for you may not work for someone else, and vice versa.

chris
Thats why the OP got the die he got. I know there are certain guns with very tight chambers. Those are an exception. Barsto barrels are also very tight and require attention when reloading. Normally, 45ACP reloads are supposed to be a bigger diameter and .452 bullets used minimum. Thats why there is a Lee FACTORY Crimp Die, it sizes the neck to factory specs for those who want to reload with .451, out of the norm. The Undersized Die is also out of the norm and sizes the full case length. The thing is that resizing to factory or near it reduces the amount of reloads to get from the case. By using normal dies and minimum .452 bullets, the manufacturers claim over 100 uses from each case as long as they are not loaded to max pressures.
Im sure that your Kimber is one of those that require the Undersized Die be used for reloads and probably maximum bullet sizes used will be .452 or .451, its just one of those. Possibly even reloads are not recommended to be used for it and it comes with a warning to only use jacketed factory FMJ-RN rounds. Just speculating now.
 
I use both .452 and .451 bullets, and I don't use an undersize die.

And my Kimber manuals, like all my other manufacture manuals, state not to use reloads.

By using normal dies and minimum .452 bullets, the manufacturers claim over 100 uses from each case as long as they are not loaded to max pressures.

Can you post a link to this claim? I would very much like to read it. Thanks.

chris
 
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