45 undersized die

Normally, 45ACP reloads are supposed to be a bigger diameter and .452 bullets used minimum. Thats why there is a Lee FACTORY Crimp Die, it sizes the neck to factory specs for those who want to reload with .451, out of the norm. The Undersized Die is also out of the norm and sizes the full case length. The
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

For decades the .45 ACP has used .451 jacketed bullets and .452 lead bullets as the norm, reloaded successfully with standard dies without the use of undersized sizers or post sizing with an FCD to squeeze it down to “fit”.

Standard dies are perfectly capable of making loaded rounds that will fit even tight chambers as long as they are not below minimum chamber dimensions.
 
I use both .452 and .451 bullets, and I don't use an undersize die.

And my Kimber manuals, like all my other manufacture manuals, state not to use reloads.



Can you post a link to this claim? I would very much like to read it. Thanks.

chris
The info is somewhere. Probably not on the interwebs links but in reloading manuals and manufacturers' reloading equipment manuals. I'm not the one who makes sizing dies, there are a couple companies that do that and they all make the sizing dies just shy of what the typical barrel chambers allow the expansion of cases to be. Obviously, to reduce excessive sizing of the case mostly for safety. Im not the one who has issues with setback because I use a larger bullet to have proper neck tension when reloading. I'm not the one who created a different set of dies that will allow reloaders to size their cases to factory spec, or near it, if they so choose and named said dies Factory Crimp Die or Undersizing Die obviously to imply that those dies are not your regular set of sizing dies originally intended for reloading, probably to further imply a disclaimer in case they get sued by someone who got hurt in a kaboom because they prematurely overstressed their casing. I'm not the one who created the physics of the world and made it so that when you stretch or bend metal in opposite directions over and over again it is supposed to break apart. Because, you know, thats exactly what happens yo casings through usage. Firing them causes expansion and the hotter the round the higher the stress, sizing them causes contraction and the smaller you size the higher the stress. Eventually, with signs or without, the case can crack, rupture, or burst during the firing process.
There might not be a wrong or right way to reload, but there is definitely a way to prevent unnecessary stress by reducing steps. Flaring and crimping creates stress at the case mouth. Both steps can be avoided by chamfering(only once) and using a correct bullet size (trial and error) that can be seated and held by the neck tension. Beveled base bullets also help to make seating easier.
I understand there can be some loads that inevitably require the extra steps. Also, the reloader only knows that process and it has worked for them. Also, safety checks can be made, and should be either way, which will prevent kabooms anyways. Its a choice, but its not hard to see that there is a safer choice which also requires less steps in the reloading process. I mean, why crimp if it's not needed? It only requires purchasing a new set of bullets. If I want to make hot loads, the cases should last much longer without crimping or undersizing. Thats not to say that those tools should not be owned. I dont have any but I, like the OP, I plan to include those in my kit eventually for those inevitable loads.
I have not purchased any .451 bullets myself as of yet. It can be that they will hold tension fine without requiring the extra steps, for now I know better than to risk it because I do not want to spend the bucks on new supplies just yet. Maybe in a couple weeks, or a couple months, or years. I dont know. There are still several. 452 bullets I want to try and a couple more powders as well as I want to first get a set of steel targets and a new gun. I understand that its best to reload the way you know before experimenting with a new method. All I know is that I dont have setback issues, Im getting small spreads, good accuracy, and reliable feeding. The plunk test is excellent as well. I only collect my personally fired 45acp brass using a KKM barrel. I know that yesterday I accidentally allowed some cases fired from my Glock barrel to get mixed in the fired brass bin. I'm curious to know how different it will be reloading with those cases. PXL_20231007_094052053.jpg PXL_20231008_003455468~2.jpg
 
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

For decades the .45 ACP has used .451 jacketed bullets and .452 lead bullets as the norm, reloaded successfully with standard dies without the use of undersized sizers or post sizing with an FCD to squeeze it down to “fit”.

Standard dies are perfectly capable of making loaded rounds that will fit even tight chambers as long as they are not below minimum chamber dimensions.
Oh, Okay. I guess the FCD and Undersized dies are just gimmicks. And here I thought people had problems with not enough neck tension and they get setback. I figured they are just not doing something right. Neck tension holds the bullet tight in place, thats the way the equipment was designed to work. Whoever cannot get that right should stop trying to reload before they hurt themselves.
 
The undersized sizer die, or "the U die", is like any other variable, you have to test with and without. If you don't, it's a waste of time and we're just guessing. Some people use them for a specific purpose where they have had sizer issues and report success. Some have tried them and found them unnecessary for their application. Some have tested them and found little to no difference.

You need a reason to try them, which is poor neck tension traced to the sizer being too large. It has been properly suggested to test the other variables and making sure it is indeed a sizer issue before going that route.

I have tried the U die in two different applications, finding that they didn't really solve the issue, and ended up solving it another way. YMMV, you just have to test things carefully. Others here have found them to be the cure in their application (Their dies, their press, their bullets, etc) and have happily announced the problem solved.

IMHO, they are not going to be needed the vast majority of the time. The die makers, bullet makers, etc, really do a fine job putting out quality products that work the vast majority of the time. They also have some of the best customer service out there.

Neck tension is case wall thickness, sizer die inner dimensions, and expander outer dimensions. If we lack proper neck tension, one or more of those things is guilty. It's our job to narrow it down and be sure before we buy different dies etc.
My feelings also. It's adding an operation possibly for no reason with no way to judge the gain. In manufacturing we would call this a non-value added operation. I like a basic die set up and don't like to vary from it but have had to. 308 wouldn't chamber in my M1A so I had to purchase a small base die and this solved that problem. I was having trouble with 9mm mixed brass not passing a case gauge or plunking so I purchased a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and that fixed that problem. Special dies, at least for me anyway, are for solving special problems. A necessary evil so to speak. Adding dies for "Just in case" is not for me.
 
I use both .452 and .451 bullets, and I don't use an undersize die.

And my Kimber manuals, like all my other manufacture manuals, state not to use reloads.



Can you post a link to this claim? I would very much like to read it. Thanks.

chris
I have loaded some pulled .451 bullets with no issue, but mostly had loose tension with other bullets. Thats what I mean, it seems like its trial and error. I will have to use the components so I have to get the tools I need. So far .452 bullets have prevented an issue and saved me money by not requiring more tools. There are plenty of interesting .452 bullets I can use for 45auto.
I was interested in the Lehigh Maximum Expansion bullets but they are not sold anymore. They do have a .452 45colt version. I wonder if anyone knows wether they can be made to work in 45auto. They are pretty long, so I have concern that they will not leave much case capacity for powder to get them as hot as I would like. 1100fps.
 
Exactly what is the description of loose tension? What is the gauge/standard we are talking about using here?
 
Exactly what is the description of loose tension? What is the gauge/standard we are talking about using here?
Loose tension, to me, means that once seated the bullet jiggles up and down in the case immediately when picked up. The bullet can be removed with the fingertips.
Setback, to me, means that there is apparent correct tension but setback occurs if pressed against a solid surface or sometimes even against the palm but there is enough tension to appear without a problem if it is not checked. These bullets will get significant setback when chambered.
Slight or Normal Setback, to me, means that a bullet will setback less than 0.002" everytime it is chambered, or cycled though, normally. 5 cycles will push it 0.010" deeper and should be repaired before firing. I have had some factory 45auto ammo do this.
No Setback, obviously, will not push in no matter how hard you press the bullet or how many times it is cycled.
When I reload, I dont crimp. I experience No Setback.
 
If I bought a die that the tension so loose that it jiggled up and down and/or could removed with the finger tips I would send the this die back to the manufacturer asking either for a refund or a replacement. I wouldn't buy an undersize die to fix for obvious reasons. Your description of set back pretty much mirrors my experience.
 
If I bought a die that the tension so loose that it jiggled up and down and/or could removed with the finger tips I would send the this die back to the manufacturer asking either for a refund or a replacement. I wouldn't buy an undersize die to fix for obvious reasons. Your description of set back pretty much mirrors my experience.
I was referring to pulled bullets. That means I took the bullets from factory loaded ammunition to reload it myself. I remember that the bullet I experienced that with were 185gr WWB FMJ-FN. I pulled 5 rounds, all 5 did the same thing. Another bullet I pulled and the same thing happened was Atomic 185gr +P Bonded Match Hollow Point. It was just as bad.
However, I have reloaded pulled bullets with success, no crimp, tight neck tension, no setback. They were .451"
 
All bets are off on pulled bullets.
I didnt know what the deal was, so I did extensive research. For a long time I assumed I needed to get a crimp die, Lee FCD or Undersized. It made sense to me to use oversized bullets and get the same results. Apparently that's just how it is. People buy a complete 45auto kit and end up having to get the FCD also. Everybody new to reloading always thinks that .451 is the go to, so everyone always has the same result. You want factory sized rounds, you get a factory crimp die. You want to do minimal sizing and extend case life, you use .452 bullets which perfectly fit an expanded casing after it has been fired. I learnt it from someone who loads thousands of rounds for competition and claims that he never throws away 45auto cases because the round is so low pressured it lasts damn near forever when sizing is done to the minimum.
My goal is not to have infinite case life, I prefer to use .452 bullets. I load pretty hot. My Berry's 200gr SWC were 960fps with Titegroup and 1100fps with Longshot. 250gr XTP were doing 1070fps with 7.9gr of Longshot, 1105fps with 8gr. The TG loads is not high pressure. The Longshot loads are in 45super cases meant to be loaded up to 45k psi and I'm loading to less than 30k psi, I'm sure. Those should last forever even at + P pressures. I eventually will only use 45super cases even for 25k loads for plinking. The 200gr doing 960fps was ejecting cases 6" up and landing at my feet in my comped 30S. LS will likely be my 45auto powder and I will save the TG for 38spl.
 
The info is somewhere. Probably not on the interwebs links but in reloading manuals and manufacturers' reloading equipment manuals. I'm not the one who makes sizing dies, there are a couple companies that do that and they all make the sizing dies just shy of what the typical barrel chambers allow the expansion of cases to be. Obviously, to reduce excessive sizing of the case mostly for safety. Im not the one who has issues with setback because I use a larger bullet to have proper neck tension when reloading. I'm not the one who created a different set of dies that will allow reloaders to size their cases to factory spec, or near it, if they so choose and named said dies Factory Crimp Die or Undersizing Die obviously to imply that those dies are not your regular set of sizing dies originally intended for reloading, probably to further imply a disclaimer in case they get sued by someone who got hurt in a kaboom because they prematurely overstressed their casing. I'm not the one who created the physics of the world and made it so that when you stretch or bend metal in opposite directions over and over again it is supposed to break apart. Because, you know, thats exactly what happens yo casings through usage. Firing them causes expansion and the hotter the round the higher the stress, sizing them causes contraction and the smaller you size the higher the stress. Eventually, with signs or without, the case can crack, rupture, or burst during the firing process.
There might not be a wrong or right way to reload, but there is definitely a way to prevent unnecessary stress by reducing steps. Flaring and crimping creates stress at the case mouth. Both steps can be avoided by chamfering(only once) and using a correct bullet size (trial and error) that can be seated and held by the neck tension. Beveled base bullets also help to make seating easier.
I understand there can be some loads that inevitably require the extra steps. Also, the reloader only knows that process and it has worked for them. Also, safety checks can be made, and should be either way, which will prevent kabooms anyways. Its a choice, but its not hard to see that there is a safer choice which also requires less steps in the reloading process. I mean, why crimp if it's not needed? It only requires purchasing a new set of bullets. If I want to make hot loads, the cases should last much longer without crimping or undersizing. Thats not to say that those tools should not be owned. I dont have any but I, like the OP, I plan to include those in my kit eventually for those inevitable loads.
I have not purchased any .451 bullets myself as of yet. It can be that they will hold tension fine without requiring the extra steps, for now I know better than to risk it because I do not want to spend the bucks on new supplies just yet. Maybe in a couple weeks, or a couple months, or years. I dont know. There are still several. 452 bullets I want to try and a couple more powders as well as I want to first get a set of steel targets and a new gun. I understand that it’s best to reload the way you know before experimenting with a new method. All I know is that I dont have setback issues, Im getting small spreads, good accuracy, and reliable feeding. The plunk test is excellent as well. I only collect my personally fired 45acp brass using a KKM barrel. I know that yesterday I accidentally allowed some cases fired from my Glock barrel to get mixed in the fired brass bin. I'm curious to know how different it will be reloading with those cases. View attachment 1174894View attachment 1174896
I encourage you to read this regarding 45acp case life. I learned a lot, you may as well.


After just 54 (hot) loadings the author/tester found the primer pockets too shallow to safely seat a primer. Yet, also by this time, no cases had split.
 
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You obviously know by now those bullets that “jiggled” weren’t .451” or the cases weren’t sized or both:)

We actually had a similar discussion a couple months ago on THR and I did a layperson’s test with pictures.
 
Oh, Okay. I guess the FCD and Undersized dies are just gimmicks. And here I thought people had problems with not enough neck tension and they get setback. I figured they are just not doing something right. Neck tension holds the bullet tight in place, thats the way the equipment was designed to work. Whoever cannot get that right should stop trying to reload before they hurt themselves.
They’re not gimmicks but are “specialty tools” and completely unnecessary the overwhelming majority of the time.
 
My feelings also. It's adding an operation possibly for no reason with no way to judge the gain. In manufacturing we would call this a non-value added operation. I like a basic die set up and don't like to vary from it but have had to. 308 wouldn't chamber in my M1A so I had to purchase a small base die and this solved that problem. I was having trouble with 9mm mixed brass not passing a case gauge or plunking so I purchased a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and that fixed that problem. Special dies, at least for me anyway, are for solving special problems. A necessary evil so to speak. Adding dies for "Just in case" is not for me.
Actually, using an undersized die is not an added step (or certainly needn’t be). It’s swapping one decapping/sizing die for another.

Whether it’s necessary or even advisable to make that swap is another issue.
 
I use .452 bullets. These are not oversized bullets. H&G #68 Where did you get the idea that .452 bullets are oversize?. 45 ACP brass lasts a long time no matter what you do to it.
Right. For example I shoot mostly 230gr RN and I’d wager .452” are at least as common as .451”

I know Berry’s, Extreme, and Acme are .452”
 
I shoot mostly 185gr SWC Acme bullets at .452. I would shoot the .451 Speer SWC if I could find them since they are a bit more accurate in my gun.

I load pretty hot. My Berry's 200gr SWC were 960fps with Titegroup and 1100fps with Longshot. 250gr XTP were doing 1070fps with 7.9gr of Longshot, 1105fps with 8gr. The TG loads is not high pressure. The Longshot loads are in 45super cases meant to be loaded up to 45k psi and I'm loading to less than 30k psi, I'm sure. Those should last forever even at + P pressures. I eventually will only use 45super cases even for 25k loads for plinking. The 200gr doing 960fps was ejecting cases 6" up and landing at my feet in my comped 30S. LS will likely be my 45auto powder and I will save the TG for 38spl.

Even though the brass is rated for 45 Super, I wouldn't shoot them at those pressures/velocities unless the gun is set up for it. A regular 1911 45acp won't take that kind of abuse forever, and some won't take it much if at all.

chris
 
Undersize dies are to increase case neck tension, where the combination of components , or purpose, indicate the need for it. One need is too prevent setback. Am checking for setback by making a dummy round (no primer/powder), inserting into mag and pistol and releasing slide using the slide release from full lock back. Imo, this subjects the round to forces it will be subjected to. In years gone by, even most factory rounds had setback, but some were excessive. Rem 45 acp plus p 185 grainers as an example. It is difficult to eliminate setback, but it certainly can be reduced . However to know if it's there, you need to check.

Not all components are sized the same, and not all components are sized as listed. Rem 45 acp brass is thin, hard and gives up alot of it's limited elasticity after one firing. Not much of a problem with target loads using a full size lead bullet with lots of bearing surface. However combine a Remington case with Win 230 gn fmj at full power and it could be a serious problem. The last time i checked the Win 230 fmj was only a tad over .450 in dia. To make use of a u die, the expanding plug should not be re expanding the case mouth. Have a turned down plug for 45 acp that does not rexpand the inner dia back to standard. That's just one example, another would be reloading for a .40 BHP, which has a very strong recoil spring. Am only reloading jacketed in it, and all the brass gets run through a u die.

And am only using the u die to "neck size" the brass to just below the bullet base, and using the die in this manner does require an extra step. Am reloading mostly full powered jacket rounds in 9mm and all the cases are neck sized with a U die. Side note Rem 9mm brass is not thinner than others in 9mm, and actually thicker than most.

Again, it depends on your purpose and components. Am using a lot of salvaged range brass, and most of it is segregated by brand. And while you can use most 45 cp brass for a long time, it does lose elasticity after awhile.
 
I shoot mostly 185gr SWC Acme bullets at .452. I would shoot the .451 Speer SWC if I could find them since they are a bit more accurate in my gun.



Even though the brass is rated for 45 Super, I wouldn't shoot them at those pressures/velocities unless the gun is set up for it. A regular 1911 45acp won't take that kind of abuse forever, and some won't take it much if at all.

chris
My 45auto slide is cut from a solid piece of ordinance steel. It is then undergone some type of hardening process and finally treated with nitride with a diamond like coating that wont even scratch when scrubbed with a steel brush. Ask me how I know for sure. 😁 The barrel is cut from the same steel and cold hammer forged. Find me a blown up Glock barrel, they can handle upwards of 80k psi and will last nearly forever under normal use. However, I am using a KKM Precision Barrel made with 4140 Stainless Steel. 60k psi proof maybe? I still expect a long life from it firing under 30k psi loads.
The frame is a unique one of a kind polymer called Polymer2. Its creator is some kind of polymer mad scientist, from what I heard, very cocky with his creations challenging impossibilities. The patented Polymer2 frame is as hard as steel and also absorbs shock better than normal polymer to prevent damage. It also reduces felt recoil.
The Stainless Steel components inside the Glock also undergo a hardening process that is unmatched by other gun manufacturers.
The recoil spring and guide rod are made by DPM Systems and their patented product is top of the line. It has a 3rd spring built in the guide rod that acts just like a built in buffer that further reduces impact to the frame by providing a 26lbs cushion. The slide (very light weight) never impacts the frame. The 30S was built for the LAPD SIS to shoot 230gr +P exclusively for a lifetime. It underwent a higher standard of treatment than any other Glock ever had.
I have fired 45super through the Glock barrel. Works perfectly fine. Recoil is excessive even with the upgraded guide rod. Although cycling is correct, muzzle flip is high for my little wristesses. However, still manageable.
The compensator is likely to eventually warp.
PXL_20231007_094052053.jpg
 
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Either way, most people crimping think they are crimping when they really are not, or not enough to make a difference at least.

Yeah, I could call that the, “remove the bell/flare” step, myself.

I don’t have a 45 ACP ”undersize“ die but I do roll size them, especially if they have been through an SMG.
 
Yeah, I could call that the, “remove the bell/flare” step, myself.

I don’t have a 45 ACP ”undersize“ die but I do roll size them, especially if they have been through an SMG.
Yea. Well, you know what I'm talking about.
 
The term crimping is used very loosely. I would also call it removing the flare. Just getting that case mouth back around .470”
 
The frame is a unique one of a kind polymer called Polymer2. Its creator is some kind of polymer mad scientist, from what I heard, very cocky with his creations challenging impossibilities. The patented Polymer2 frame is as hard as steel and also absorbs shock better than normal polymer to prevent damage. It also reduces felt recoil.
The Stainless Steel components inside the Glock also undergo a hardening process that is unmatched by other gun manufacturers.
The recoil spring and guide rod are made by DPM Systems and their patented product is top of the line. It has a 3rd spring built in the guide rod that acts just like a built in buffer that further reduces impact to the frame by providing a 26lbs cushion. The slide (very light weight) never impacts the frame. The 30S was built for the LAPD SIS to shoot 230gr +P exclusively for a lifetime. It underwent a higher standard of treatment than any other Glock ever had.
I'd love to see documentation of all of this. But no matter how well the gun is built, we do not encourage loading over pressure. And again, .451 is standard for jacketed bullets in the .45 ACP, has been forever. If a die set can't load them with good neck tension, you have a sizer issue or an expander issue.
 
I'd love to see documentation of all of this. But no matter how well the gun is built, we do not encourage loading over pressure. And again, .451 is standard for jacketed bullets in the .45 ACP, has been forever. If a die set can't load them with good neck tension, you have a sizer issue or an expander issue.
Yeah. Before I started penny pinching, I used a couple brands of FMJ and recall they were all .451”. Remington was one but can’t recall the other. Maybe Winchester.

Then I went to plated and coated and they are all .452”. Acme, Extreme, Berry’s, Montana, etc.

I can’t find evidence now but I’d almost swear some cast I bought from SNS were .453”. Couldn’t use them—too smokey indoors.

Regardless, ALL were loaded using mixed brass and a perfectly fine standard sized Lee sizing die.
 
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