.45 Weak?

Status
Not open for further replies.
One of the things I've seen written about urban combat is over penetration. As I understand it there is a upper limitation of about 20" for police rounds in many cities. Of course the idea being that anything that can penetrate the bad guy and kill someone else a block away eventually will.
Click to expand...

I think the overpenetration concern is a bogus issue. In most shootings, the majority of the rounds don't even hit the intended target, yet everybody worries about an on target shot overpenetrating and (at very low velocity) wounding someone else (a block away, you said?) while ignoring the full speed rounds whizzing past the target!

The statistics I've seen are that in the average police shooting, only 6 to 30% of the rounds fired hit the intended target. Of course, we all imagine that we are the perfect shooters.

Anecdotal, but I know of one local police shooting where the cop emptied a high capacity Glock (23 rounds IIRC) and the only thing he hit was a neighbor's TV.

Now tell me again why we are so worried about a round being effective and overpenetrating when it's on target?

Ken
 
Where the 45acp shines is when you calculate momentum, not energy. I forget what the equation is to caculate such but some of you know I'm sure.
 
The 45acp is a compromise, but it is the very best compromise under current scientific development. Yes, the 40 S&W pretty well matches the me figures of the 45acp but at the expense of nearly double the chamber pressure and much sharper recoil. The 9mm can reach the me levels of the 45 but again at the expense of light bullet weight and high velocity. My personal opinion is that momentum (mass times velocity) is a much more honest venue to judge the effectiveness of a self defense pistol round and on that yardstick the 45acp is clearly the overall champion. That is why it is still the absolute choice for self defense by knowledgeable civilian shooters. As far as law enforcement use goes, it has no bearing whatsoever on real world performance as the politicians who make decisions about what caliber pistol to have their troops carry are aware of the fact that most LEOs cannot hit a paper target at twenty five yards and under stress couldn't hit an elephant at five yards so the caliber used in of no consequence. Gun must be small enough so the new female ninety pound officerette can grip it long enough to empty a magazine, hold enough rounds to make the officer feel like he can spray and pray his way to victory and cheap enough that the budget can be rearranged to buy more computers for the chiefs office. Please don't take this as an "anti LEO" rant. I have shot competitively in IPSC and PPC for over fifty years and have competed with some really fine LEO shooters. That said, I have also been present during qualifications for many police, sheriffs and state police departments and can tell you first hand that over ninety percent of the officers are socially, politically and emotionally well suited to serving the public but have almost a pathological dislike for firearms, even their own and do not practice gun handling or marksmanship in any practical manner. An illustration for your consideration: In the 1950s the California Highway Patrol had a very efficient pistol training course involving their Smith & Wesson model 19 "Highway Patrol" revolvers. That training got two officers killed in a gunfight. The training involved firing at known distance at human torso shaped cardboard targets. The officers would fire six rounds, swing the cylinder open and eject the brass, pick up the brass and place it in a range box and reload their revolvers and resume firing at the target. This was done for eighteen rounds or through two reloads starting with a full cylinder. In a gunfight with bad guys on the old highway 99 north of LA two CHP officers were shot and killed while picking up their brass!! They both emptied their guns at the bad guys at about the same time and both were shot when the bad guys simply walked up and blew them away with empty guns in their hands. Training changed at the academy after that, but not much. Forensics, Radios, Scientific Investigation and sheer numbers are in favor of the LEOs in their battles with crime but skill under pressure with a pistol is not part of their CV.
 
IMHO... The .45 ACP is the standard by which pistol calibers are judged. It earned that status by being effective, even with ball ammo, since 1905. I think the 125gr HP .357s are probably the best stopper, but at the expense of more blast and noise. No body poo-poos the effectiveness of the various SD .40 & 10mm loadings, but they have sharper recoil and more noise. A fast 9mm with proper bullets will be effective, but not as effective as a .357 or .38 Super unless pushed pretty hard. The .45 is the best balanced cartridge.

Not that this is the most scientific study; I think it puts us in the general ball park:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0
 
Down On Momentum

MPMARTY, I have to disagree on the MOMENTUM THEORY. I remember when it came out and it was used to justify giving more points in competition to the .45ACP.
I do not remember it being linked to any scientific or statistical studies of handgun ammunition effectiveness. The people who backed it were big backers of the .45ACP and also pushed the HEAVY 147 grain 9m.m. bullet as being the most effective round in that caliber. Experience proved otherwise.

Many followed Jeff COOPER and agreed with his assessment that the .45ACP was effective 95% of the time. I rarely see anyone pushing that number anymore.
I also think it is suspect as it does not allow for the effectiveness of the individual bullet design. It rates the jacketed hollow point and non-expanding ball ammo as equal. That has been proven over and over as untrue.

Consider the failure to stop reputation of the old .38 special round nose load. Many departments switched to the +P 158-grain lead semi wad-cutter hollow point and the problem pretty much ended.
The same has happened with the 9m.m. round. In IRAQ, the 9m.m. full metal jacket load has again come under fire for failure to stop. The many police departments using the 9m.m. have not reported this problem.

This has been the impetus for the military to revive the .45ACP for the standard handgun caliber. The motivation there is that they are stuck with full metal jacket ammunition. They have a real need for the .45ACP. Unfortunately, I doubt any changes will happen soon.

The momentum theory also fails to explain why the .357 magnum picked up such a great street reputation for stopping power. It was around for a long time, but the reputation was made when the 125 grain load came out. Momentum theory says the best stopping power will be the heavier bullet and this has not proven true with the .357.

My own agency went to the .40 caliber and has not had any problems or complaints from the field that I am aware of. It gets used a lot.

I know the .45ACP is sacred to many shooters. I just do not see the evidence to support it.


I also have to disagree with your low opinion of most LEO'S shooting ability. It is better than it used to be and the training is more realistic. NOT EVERY AGENCY, but most are trying. I would rate the average LEO at least equal if not better than the average civilian shooter. The vast majority of civilians have not had any formal training and that works against them.
Those who have been to GUNSITE and the other schools cannot be held up as an average shooter.
Against a competition trained shooter, the advantage goes to the competitor, but many, many LEO'S are shooting in competition.
Most bad guys have no training and often miss.

About your story of the 1950 shootout (I think it was the NEWHALL shootout), something’s have changed for the better, but not all.

When my agency shared a range in MIAMI with a police department that had a lot of shootings, we were amazed at the low standard of the qualification that they used.
At the time, my agency used a 72 round course and it went from 1.5 yards to 25 yards. We also mixed in night shoots, stress testing, multiple target engagement and officer down training. Now we are also using red-man and gun grab training. Nothing like that existed in the 1950's. Things can and have improved.
I also observed the DEA qualifying at a range one day. THEY WERE GOOD, REAL GOOD. They used experience based scenarios to plan their training.

A great deal depends on the experience of the agency and the seriousness with which they take shooting. I would not paint such a broad picture as you have, at least based on my own experience.

Just my opinion.

Jim
 
First, DEA shooters are among the best I've ever seen. I literally have not believed my eyes and ears when I've seen them shoot at inter-agency matches. I'd love to be privy to their training program.

Second, weight, velocity and mass all figure into effectiveness on a human body.
I tried a. 40 caliber 180-grain Golden Saber (in 10mm) on milk jugs filled with water that chronoed at close to 1,400 fps. It blew right through and left an exit hole about three inches around.
The same bullet at about 960 from a .40 S&W blew the jug in half.
After extensive discussion with my boss (a state LEO instructor) we came to the conclusion the 10mm round went through too quickly to displace its energy. The .40, penetrating at a slower rate, had time to displace its energy and therefore caused more damage.
Conclusion: If you are ever attacked by milk jugs use a .40 S&W...
 
The momentum theory also fails to explain why the .357 magnum picked up such a great street reputation for stopping power. It was around for a long time, but the reputation was made when the 125 grain load came out. Momentum theory says the best stopping power will be the heavier bullet and this has not proven true with the .357.
Click to expand...

You must remember that this was with this nice 6"+ barrel lengths. The snubbies out now can't hit that 1600-1700+fps with the 125 grain loads. Also the bullet design is different than that of the slightly smaller 9mm (.357 vs .355) bfd as far as the diameter is concerned but the 9mm is more of a "pointy" bullet while the .357's tend to be more open and flat like that of the 45. Even the hollow points in the .357's have much more of an opening than that of the 9mm.

There is some magic that happens with a .357 somewhere above the 1500+fps range in the 125 grain load in regards to human sized targets. I am sure that if you take the different barrel lengths you would see that the "magic" just does not happen in the shorter barrels. This is why my .357 is my BUG mostly and NOT my primary.

Regarding the .357 and snubbies I believe that the 158 grain load is the most effective, with one minor exception, that being the DPX 125 grain load from Corbon. The Barnes bullets, although lighter weights, tend to have deeper penetration than the same load in grain weight of any other hollow point.

In addition I would like to throw out that I don't know of ANY other caliber that can give anywhere near the performance of a 45acp in an AUTO with a 3-5" barrel running anywhere close to the low pressures that it produces. Albeit, the 5" barrels are still optimal but they still perform quite well even in the micro compacts.

Some other similar things happen like when you look at the 45-70 vs the 454 casull in a 10" revolver. The ballistics being very similar but the 45-70 runs at half the pressures and significantly less recoil.

Low pressure rounds recoil with more of "push" faster powders and higher pressure equate into a "snappy" recoil, my neighbor whom I finally got to buy a gun, liked my 45 but wanted less recoil. So he bought a 40 without firing it first. He can hit the 10 ring no problem with any of my 45s but when it came to the 40 he was hitting the dirt at 7 yards in anticipation of the recoil. He was quite disappointed. So why is that? I can't explain THAT much of a change from one gun/caliber to the next. I tried helping but it only got him on paper.

45's seem more of a push and a whoomp than a crack and snap. I am just saying that to each his own, but the 45 is by far a "weak" cartridge. Ask anyone if the 45-70 is "weak" and see if you get any people saying it is.

Slow and low pressure does not equal poor performance. It can actually aid in the handing and control of the weapon.

As to exercises while firing, the best practice at hitting moving targets is to take your 1911 out and go bunny hunting ;)
 
I personally think the .40 should be outlawed all together and a mandatory conversion to .357sig be performed on all that are currently in use. Without .40S&W brass littering the ground at our ranges it would be much easier to pick up .45acp or 9mm brass without having to push case mouths together to see what you had. :) :) I just don't need that "in-between" brass muddying the process.
 
More talk on pressure

BIG BOOMER, the .357 magnum had been around for 30 years and had a mixed reputation with police departments. It penetrated very well when using 158 grain loads, but did not establish itself as a great man-stopper. It was easy to shoot and completely penetrate a human target. It made for a good hunting load, but not a good combat load.

This all changed when REMINGTON brought out the 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. This load exited a 4 inch barrel in the 1,500 feet per second range, did not over-penetrate and almost always expanded. Those law enforcement agencies that adopted it found it to be the best combat load that they could get.
However, nothing comes free. My agency found that the K-frame SMITH & WESSON revolvers were getting beaten to a pulp by regular use of this round. It was fine in L-frame revolvers like the 686, N-frame revolvers and the heaver built RUGER'S.
We eventually adopted the 110 grain JHP for our K-frame users. It actually has a lower velocity than the 125 grain JHP. It also has less recoil and works better than a .38, but not nearly as well as the 125 grain.

BIG BOOMER, I do not think you can compare a .45-70 to a .45ACP round. Both are low pressure, but the .45-70 uses a bullet weighing nearly an ounce. The .45ACP weighs half that. That heavy bullet is why the .45-70 penetrates so well.
I found the recoil of a .45-70 to be heavy enough in my MARLIN to not enjoy plinking with it.

I think we are getting off the track here. NOLO was looking at the pressure of a .45ACP and thinking that pressure has something to do with stopping power. Pressure and stopping power are unrelated.
The .45ACP worked by virtue of its weight of bullet and large caliber. The .45-70 has even lower pressure, but worked by using a bullet weighing nearly an ounce in weight plus large caliber.
The 9m.m., .357 magnum, .357 SIG and .40 caliber all use high pressure to obtain higher velocity to give a smaller bullet adequate expansion.
The .308 is considered powerful by virtually everyone and it is a high pressure round. It uses that pressure to obtain high velocity for a bullet of only 3/8th the weight of a .45-70. In this case, velocity makes up for mass and gives much flatter trajectory.

I have used the .45ACP is 5, 4 ¼ and 3 ½ inch barrels. From the shorter barrels, velocity drops into the 700 feet per second range and expansion of a hollow point can be very chancy. For that reason and to keep recoil down in a lightweight pistol, I prefer the 9m.m. If you carry only ball (full metal jacket) ammo in your gun, then expansion probably is not important to you. I want all the expansion I can get combined with adequate penetration.

Interesting discussion so far.

Jim
 
Golden wrote:
This all changed when REMINGTON brought out the 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. This load exited a 4 inch barrel in the 1,500 feet per second range, did not over-penetrate and almost always expanded. Those law enforcement agencies that adopted it found it to be the best combat load that they could get.
Click to expand...

You just supported what I had said, something magic happens over the 1500+ fps range. Notice that I did not include the 4" in the snubbie category. And your chronoed results at 1500fps out of a 4" still do not hit the 1600-1700+fps that I was referring to for the 6"+ barrel lengths.

1500+fps for a 357 is just fine. Unfortunately I cannot hit that with my 3" snubbie :(

As far as the 45-70 I was not comparing it to the 45acp except for another caliber that uses extremely low pressure and is effective. You don't have to have high pressure to be effective.

That being said, I've always had a fascination with the .357 sig but have never shot one. I am interested in necked down pistol bullets, there are quite a few, but one I want to see is a 45 necked down to a .355 bullet perhaps the .358 Super (duper)? LOL

I also would like to point out...

the .357 magnum had been around for 30 years and had a mixed reputation with police departments. It penetrated very well when using 158 grain loads, but did not establish itself as a great man-stopper. It was easy to shoot and completely penetrate a human target. It made for a good hunting load, but not a good combat load.
Click to expand...

I would completely agree with this, but now with many superior performing hollow points available in the 158 grain category that were never around when the .357 was standard issue I believe could work great in sub 4" guns. For the 4" I would still go with the 125 grain. 110 grainers though eat your top strap for lunch.

You will also notice that the 158 grainers drop somewhere below that high velocity 1500fps mark out of a 4" as well, leaving me to believe something in there about rapid expansion but I am not a physicist nor a ballistics expert, but I do play one at the local shooting range ;)
 
BIG BOOMER, I think the velocity threshhold may be lower. The .40 caliber and 9m.m. +P and +P+ all operate in the 1.170 to 1,300 feet per second range and have established good field reputations.
For my agency, the .40 caliber has been a huge success.

I think if you have a good bullet design, all you need is the velocity to generate the energy to obtain the expansion or penetration desired.

Jim
 
A needle fired at (Going ridiculous here) 50,000 feet per second would probably go right through a person and I'm guessing they would hardly notice it.
Click to expand...

Actually, a standard sewing needle, weighing .24 grains travelling at 50,000 ft/sec would deliver 1276 ft-lbs of energy. It is like getting hit by a .223 rifle.
Never underestimate kinetic energy.
 
Its not just the KE, its also how much energy is transfered...
 
It makes a big hole. As long as it can penetrate deep enough to get to the goods (it does) then it makes a great wound channel. Defense situations are subjective, but a big hole is always handy. I'm a 40S&W guy, but I will never question 45acp.
 
from the physics

Momentum = mass X velocity

Impulse = change in momentum = mass X change in velocity

Force = mass X acceleration (or deceleration)

Work = Force X distance acted upon = mass X acceleration X distance

using a round that weighs the most, decelerates the most over the longest possible distance will do the most work on the target.

load it too hot and it doesnt stick in the target long enough to slow down, load it too light and it slows faster and hits with less energy.

I have a .40 and a .45 and use rounds that have about the same amount of energy to penetrate a ballistic gel about 14 inches which in my mind is the average of the side to side and front to back distances. both hollow points expand to about the same diameter, .70 inches, hit with different masses and speeds, but close Energies. the .40 has less mass and slows down more rapidly but over a similar distance, the .45 slows down more slowly but over a similar distance, and the .40 has a smaller cross section area (more pressure since pressure = force divided by area) and the .45 less

I believe that all in all, the rounds will accomplish the same feat
 
Its all about energy dump. We are soft and pulpy, too much energy and the bullet overpenetrates, slower and it gives it "just enough" energy to penetrate deeply and make us sit down and shut up. Of course you also have to factor in ft-lb vs area of the bullet. Smaller bullet same ft lbs and you'll probably over penetrate. Bigger bullet same energy and you won't.

When I worked with bullet design, you had to come up with enough energy to get decent ballistics, and enough penetration. With large bullets you just don't need a whole lot of energy. Think of it as being hit by a by a bat or a bullet. Make the bullet small enough and it will go clean through you. Will you sit down and shut up... maybe. If I hit you with a bat and the same amount of energy... you WILL stop what you are doing and be unhappy (dead? probably not-- but this is a human example).

Rifles? Well that a whole different ball game.
 
"The .40 has more ME than the .45, remember that the reason it exists, is that the FBI guys testing the 10mm realized that they could significantly reduce the powder charge and STILL have more energy than a 9mm or a .45."

So at a certain point they were just burning powder for no reason.
And the 45 and the 40 are very similar in energy. And I bet you wouldn't notice the difference by being shot by either.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/40sw.htm
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45auto.htm
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=USA45JHP&cart=NDUgQXV0b21hdGlj
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=USA45JHP&cart=NDUgQXV0b21hdGlj
 
200gr +P .45 acp

the LISTED ballistics by spper of their 200gr +P .45acp have hav emore energy than the .40S&W 180gr or 165gr. i keep the 180's in my .40 at home and my 200gr in my .45 that i keep with me
 
Uh, the reason the FBI went to 40's was the full power 10mm was beating the crap out of their pistols and their agents, by and large, couldn't shoot it very well. They initially downloaded the 10's with a 'FBI load' that matched the soon-to-be invented 40 S&W.

And, seeing as they could get the same performance out of a shorter case, they were able to change to a smaller gripframe that fit more of the agents better. They had already figured out that energy of and for itself, isn't a good way to look at pistol rounds. The famously flawed RII proved that.
 
Big Boomer?

per)? LOLper (dThat being said, I've always had a fascination with the .357 sig but have never shot one. I am interested in necked down pistol bullets, there are quite a few, but one I want to see is a 45 necked down to a .355 bullet perhaps the .358 Suu


IF a .45 acp necked to .357 or even .41 is your interest then try Google?

The Bo Clerke 38/45 was marketed in the 60s as I recall and came with a 1911 conversion barrel and seven die reloading set from Hollywood Company.

Recently Dick Casull re birthed the round using his name using modern Super brass

The .41 was called the Avenger.

Not much out there that hasn't been done before. OBTW-

Buffalo Bore lists some 125s I'm sure will go 1500 from your 3"

This thread has soooooo much wrong, shhhh, folks using the FBI as a credible source? Small calibers are weak?? The .45acp duplicates the old .45 Long Colt? (255s@1000fps?!) Yeah, I know they downsized the old load from 40 to 30gns.
 
The thing to remember about the 45acp is it leaves a big hole. This allows victims to bleed out better than those hit with smaller cartridges. Something to think about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

jski
  • Locked
Ruger SR1911 & 45 Super
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
jski
jski
S
  • Locked
Ignorant statement of the day....
2
Replies
42
Views
2K
TimboKhan
TimboKhan
M
  • Locked
I'm not so sure about the .45 ACP anymore
2 3
Replies
59
Views
4K
BevrFevr
B
D
  • Locked
Velocity, Mass, Ft-lbs and all that jazz
Replies
22
Views
800
swinokur
S
Kano383
  • Locked
.45 ACP, .45 ACP +P, .45 Super... momentum/springs?
Replies
16
Views
2K
fxvr5
fxvr5
Back
Top