.454 or 500 S&W Magnum

[Zombiphobia]

have you got any target pictures to show the accuracy?
I thought the 500 S&W was big and fast, not slow. Altough I guess it could be considered slow for the weight. I seem to recall reading reports of 2,000 FPS, which I wouldn't call slow.
I could be confused though.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Yes my 300gr hit a little over 2k which is pretty quick for a handgun I suppose. My 500gr JSP hit around 1420 out of the 4". Ill look around here for some Targets and snap some shots for you.

 

[captain awesome]

I thought the 500 S&W was big and fast, not slow. Altough I guess it could be considered slow for the weight. I seem to recall reading reports of 2,000 FPS, which I wouldn't call slow.
I could be confused though.

The 500 mag is big and fast. Comparing it to a rifle it would be big and slow. It is an amazingly versatile gun though few give it that credit, Especially if you hand load, which is the only way most of us can afford to become proficient with it. You can fire 275gr 2100+ fps screamers all the way up to 700 gr hardcast bone crushers at 1200fps, if that's not a grizzly killer I don't know what is.

 

[CraigC]

I don't particularly care for the big X-frames but I'd rather have a .500S&W than ANY shotgun. Sectional density is one of the most important factors and a good .500 LBT has it all over any shotgun slug. The whole shotgun for bears is myth and legend. It doesn't stand to scrutiny. Can you even get 10ga slugs???

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

You can get them, but the real question is, can you SHOOT them!? That is a lot of whack into the shoulder with a ton of muzzle rise. Better hope you drill it first shot because more than likely you wont get a second.

 

[Guns&Religion]

The .500 would be better against a bear, but I would not feel inadequately armed with the .454. Also I like the flexibility of using .45 LC or .45 Auto (with moon clips or 0 rings)

 

[788Ham]

Zombiphobia,

Take a look at the "Hunting" thread on this site, regarding the Win. Platinum round. Read the story in that thread about how the .500 works in 1000 lb. Brownies, amazing read. Might give some thought about how much those hairy suckers can absorb!

 

[tango2echo]

Ok. I am going to weigh in here...

I spent several decades as a bear guide in Northern Ontario, have personally taken over 300 bears, and have hunted Browns in BC, AK, and Northern Russia. I have had more defensive situations with bears than any sane man should have in thirty lifetimes. ANY pistol is just a means to an end. There is no firearm you can carry in a holster, bring to shooting position, and shoot rapidly and effectively enough 100% of the time to stop a charging bear.

However, if you are going to carry a pistol as a primary defensive weapon against Momma Brown and Company, it better be double action, atleast .45 caliber, have over 1000ftlbs of energy, loaded with heavy solids, and have the sights filed off. (So after the bear shoves it up your backside it won't hurt as much pulling it out.)

I carried a Mossberg 835 12ga 3 1/2" with a 18" bbl and 1 1/8oz slugs for most of my time guiding, as well as a .454. My primary hunting weapon was a .300WM loaded with 200gr Partitions. (I also used several .338's, and a .416) I have seen bears killed cleanly with a .243 and I've seen a 500lb black that was wounded with a poorly placed .30-06 bullet take 3 more rounds of .30-06 and 6 of .300WM to stop a charge.

Personally, between the .454 and the .500S&W, I would prefer the .500S&W, atleast until they come out with the .600S&W!

t2e

 

[dan3]

If the only handgun choice as a "defense" is either a .454 or a .500 - I'd go with the .500 S&W...throwing the heaviest hard cast lead slug I could find. However, I really wouldn't be thrilled with either one. The X-frame S&Ws (IMHO) are just too big /heavy/awkward to be totin' as a backup/carry gun.

My personal choice would be, in a double action, the Ruger Redhawk .45colt, 5 1/2" barrel with at least 325grs of hard cast lead - loaded HOT!! I usually carry a 5 1/2" Redhawk in .45colt or .44 mag when hunting. I'm also partial to Ruger's Bisley Blackhawk .45colt/.45acp in 5 1/2" - all of the Rugers are usually carried in hip holsters (occasionally in a Simply Rugged with the chest mount straps).

 

[Hondo 60]

I'd be OK with either.
But the 454 Casull intrigues me.

Most likely will get one in the very near future.

 

[Tomcat47]

I like the .454 it will do anything that the .500 will do in my opinion and with less money out of your pocket and more options on the market available for it.

And lets face it the Raging Bull is just awesome, especially in 8-3/8 !

What a hoot!

 

[captain awesome]

I like the .454 it will do anything that the .500 will do in my opinion

no, it definitely won't. The 500 ca do a lot the 454 can't and the 454 can do stuff the 500 can't. they both kill very well however.

Zombiephobia,
I just remembered about this. I personally plan to get one some time soon, and I think this just might be what you are looking for. Scroll down past the book advertisement (excellent read btw) and read the article and review from gunblast. This would be my choice for a grizzly defense situation, loaded with a 600 gr hardcast.

http://www.john-ross.net/store.php

you could also check out http://ballisticsupply.net/ cheapest factory ammo you can find for the 500. still cheaper to reload though.

 

[CraigC]

Last I checked, the .454 won't sling a cast bullet over 360gr, certainly not in the same class as a +500gr and it will never be .50 caliber. I'll take a .480Ruger over the .454 every day of the week.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Well Waywatcher, he is actually asking about 2 specific offerings. The 454 and the 500 S&W. A couple of others have kind of went off kilter with other offerings. Rather than offering a knowledgeable opinion you decided to pop in with a snide comment. Perhaps you should spend more time out and about rather than taking what precious little time you have and wasting it on making comments in a forum that you are not interested in.

Zombie, I guess I am going to have to take the beast out and shoot a little this week so I can print some targets for you to get an idea on the accuracy with the 4". Thought I had some targets laying around from it but I guess they ended up in the trash pile. The things I do to help people SHEESH

 

[Tomcat47]

Fred Bear used a recurve for Bear! just a thought.....

And I will stand corrected by captain awesome in as much as the .500 has options and energy above the .454....but my intention was to imply for bears the .454 would do as well as the .500 And he makes a great statement between the two!

And I like Hondo 60 ..... " My 454 Intrigues Me "

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Captain Awesome, Remind me later to send my wife in your direction. I went to that link you posted and dag nabbit I am going to order me one of them. Oh and btw, while my wife is one of the most understanding women on the planet when it comes to my enthusiasm for weapons, she cant seem to understand why I need 3 of the SAME DAMN GUN! (Her words not mine)

Zombie, If I do order that new one and like it, I will more than likely be selling the 4". Ill keep you updated if you find yourself in the market for it. Wife usually wins.

Captain, when I point her in your direction, she is not going to be happy

YOUR FAULT!

 

[Lost Sheep]

15 Meters?

However, I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition. Versatility is good. Light-weight(lightER weight) is good, heavy recoil is not really the primary concern, as follow-up shots really don't need to be lightning quick or at more than 15 meters, but being able to handle the gun with one hand(if neccesary) is desireable, as well as not needing to tote it around on a sling or a pack mule.

Brown bears will OFTEN make a false charge, which generally stops at about 6 or 7 meters. No way to tell if a charge is real or false outside of that range, so 10-15 meters is not likely to pass muster as a DLP (Defense of Life or Property) shooting in these parts. Alaska State Troopers or Alaska Dept of Fish & Game investigate all such shootings. I don't know about the areas you frequent, though.

I carry a 454 Casull Super Redhawk 7.5" because I like Rugers better than Smiths (because of their strength and internal lockwork). My friend keeps a 500 S&W 4" for bear protection. He carried a Smith on the job for decades and trusts the maker.

If Ruger made a 500 Bill (my name for an extended 500 S&W cartridge, which would, of course, require a stretched-frame Super Redhawk) I would opt for it. I believe in big bullets and deep penetration on bears. Hard cast and large, flat meplat.

Typical energy levels for comparison purposes (source: Wikipedia)

ft lbs cartridge

1,000 .44 Mag
1,200 45 Colt (Ruger and T/C only)
1,500 .50 AE
1,300 480 Ruger
1,800 .475 Linebaugh (same bullet as 480 Ruger, longer cartridge)
1,900 .454 Casull
2,400 .460 SW
2,600 .500 SW

and the .500 can throw a MUCH bigger bullet.

But, in bear country, I prefer pepper spray as my second line of defense and the Ruger as the third. (Good woodscraft being the first line of defense.) If only one of the two tools, it is the spray. Spray has a MUCH better track record of keeping humans unharmed in bear-human encounters than firearms of any type. You also blew a big hole in (or ruined) a nice hike or fishing trip if you have to shoot a bear, whether you killed it or not.

If you wound a bear with a firearm, you have left a danger for humans who follow behind you. If you run off a bear with pepper spray, you have left a bear more likely to be human-averse, thereby making the woods actually safer (once the spray's effects have worn off the bear's senses of smell and sight). You should report either encounter, but are legally required (again, in Alaska) to report it if you shoot the bear.

On your other thoughts:

I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition. Versatility is good.

Big bullets hit hardest. Cross-sectional area is important and momentum is more significant than energy (in my opinion).

In these parts, 500 S&W ammunition runs around $3 each. Reloading cuts that cost to less than a quarter of that. My Freedom Arms 454 cost the same as my friend's 500 Smith, a bit over $1,000. I got my .454 Super Redhawk for an even $500 (new from Wal-Mart - unused but showcase abused and WalMart reneged on their promise to fix the broken rear sight, but I held up my end of the purchase anyway).

I would love to have a 480 Ruger 5-shot 7.5", but Ruger never built any in that configuration.

I hope my ramblings and opinions help inform your thoughts.

Good luck.

Consider getting a reloading setup.

Lost Sheep

 

[Beyond_Perfection]

Just a question please don't flame me to much.
I would think .460 over .454 simply because you can use 45lc, 454 or 460 in it.
It comes in the bear kit with orange box and all the goodies.

I would think the 500 with the monster weight bullets would be better at the bear problem by a bit but the 460 is just so much more versatile.

Barrel length is a bit much but what about a BFR in 45-70 or 450 Marlin?

Being single action you could fan it like Bob Mundun.... OK that last part is a joke.

 

[Zombiphobia]

Thanks for all the replies, this thread is turning out pretty well, I think.

Just for the record though, the question was hypothetical. I have no intention whatsoever of going to Alaska or anywhere else that I have to justify shooting a very large, dangerous charging animal. I was simply asking "between the two, which would you pick and why?"
Legality has nothing to do with it, unless of course the lagality of owning or using would influence your choice for the given situation.

I'd also like to ask for the DE debate to please cease. This is a revolver thread, not an autoloader thread. Personaly, I have nothing much against the DE, infact I'd like to have one someday, but this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with autoloaders.

As bragging note, say what you will, but I'm a big guy and an 8 lb revolver isn't going to present a huge problem for me to draw from a holster single handedly(and I wouldn't use a plain belt holster either for obvious reasons). Sure can't do it as fast as I can with a 2 lb gun, but I can still do it. I lift a lot of heavy weights in vigorous, awakward motions everyday, and just as a test, I tried using a 15lb hand weight in a from-the-hip pistol-drawing fashion, out-stretch aim type of deal to see how easy it would be. Sure, it was a bit awkward, but I can do it well enough to not qualify as "slow" and "definitely be bear food".

All that nonsense aside, this isn't a contest either, so let's all keep to the point.. which was.. between .454 and 500 S&W against an angry grizz, which would you choose and why? There was a bit about the particular projectile launching system you would choose, as well. Pretty much anyting beyond those key points is just excess rambling, much like my soon-to-be questioned statement regarding heavy weights and such.


Great stuff guys and gals, keep it coming!!

 

[Prosser]

I have what I think is the near perfect bear gun.
Freedom Arms 83 converted to .500 JRH, which gets in since it's the short version of the .500 S&W

Using hardcast 430 grain bullets at 1350 fps, the factory load from Buffalobore,
this round has proven to penetrate car sized bison, asian buffalo, Nigali, etc.

The package is light enough to carry all the time, and, yes, it recoils, but, not absurdly.

That said, the two big bears taken in Alaska by local hunters both took 11 rounds each to finally go down, but, that was from a .375 H&H.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

That said, the two big bears taken in Alaska by local hunters both took 11 rounds each to finally go down, but, that was from a .375 H&H

I'll say it again, couldn't be shot placement in those instances could it? NOOOOOOOOOOO NEEEEVVVVVEEEERRRRRR. While Brown Bears are some tough critters no doubt, they are not invincible!!! 11 shots from a .375 H&H tells me that those were not "hunters" and had absolutely NO idea where to hit a Brown Bear. It is stories such as these that shows me common sense and simple marksmanship are becoming a VERY scarce resource nowadays.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

When in bear country, I'm going to duct tape this baby to my hand, and if the bear gets too close, I'm going to shove my hand into his jaws, and empty the gun. Should help reduce muzzle blast and recoil.

[/IMG]

 

[captain awesome]

Captain Awesome, Remind me later to send my wife in your direction. I went to that link you posted and dag nabbit I am going to order me one of them. Oh and btw, while my wife is one of the most understanding women on the planet when it comes to my enthusiasm for weapons, she cant seem to understand why I need 3 of the SAME DAMN GUN! (Her words not mine)

haha, glad to hear it, still saving for mine. Let me know how it goes when you get it.

My wife is the same way. She put the Kibosh on 44 mags after my fifth one. Still have growing room for the 500 though

 

[atlanticfire]

I've never been in beer country let alone shot at one. But I think my 500 mag with 700 gr cast loaded to a little over 1200 should do it.

 

[Panzercat]

Supposedly a Ruger Alaskan in the .454 is managable according to the people firing it. That said, I'm a fan of physics. The more mass you can send downrange, the better; both in individual units and as a whole.

That said, there are practical limits to that, since you realistically can't cart around an M60 for everyday anti bear defense. Are you carring this around every day? Special occasion hikes? Your carry pistol is probably going to cost 2-3 pounds. I know, this is pistols, but consider a double barreled shotty loaded with slugs. At 18in it won't weigh much and allows for devestating and instantaneous second shot. From everything I've heard on Brownies, they can cruise full stealth at 40+ mph when they want to. You probably won't get more than 2 shots anyway. Just a thought at any rate.