454 the most versatile 45 caliber

AJC1

AJC1

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I have a 45c and I have a 45-70. Could the utility of both be replaced in just one carbine? I'm thinking if marlin got its act together like Rossi and popped out a 16" carbine in 454c, from paper to hunting it would be the one and done pistol caliber carbine. 43 mag might not even want to show up to that contest... I find a lot of times 45c doesn't really amuse, and 45-70 just brutal.
 
Would not the .450 Bushmaster or .458 Socom be better? The also go into autoloaders...

Granted... neither of those would fit into a pistol...
 
When it comes to bullet weights, the .454 taps out where the .45-70 is just warming up. Thats not to say that the .454 isn't suitable for most people and certainly handier. But as a 1:1 replacement for the .45-70?
I'll see your 300gr .452 @ 2000fps out of a rifle, and raise you a 300gr. .458 @ 2400fps.
Or a 500+gr bullet at any speed.
Interesting thought experiment but it doesn't really pan out.
 
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Charlie98 said:
Would not the .450 Bushmaster or .458 Socom be better? The also go into autoloaders...

Granted... neither of those would fit into a pistol...
Click to expand...
So 460 would be even better, just more brutal. Is there a living thing to hunt where 454 won't do the job at full power? Obviously I'm not chasing polar bear...
 
silicosys4 said:
When it comes to bullet weights, the .454 taps out where the .45-70 is just warming up. Thats not to say that the .454 isn't suitable for most people and certainly handier. But as a 1:1 replacement for the .45-70?
I'll see your 300gr .452 @ 2000fps out of a rifle, and raise you a 300gr. .458 @ 2400fps.
Or a 500+gr bullet at any speed.
Interesting thought experiment but it doesn't really pan out.
Click to expand...
So where is that needed.... is that a more is always better senerio?
 
AJC1 said:
So where is that needed.... is that a more is always better senerio?
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No, thats why I don't have any interest in the .454, as I have a .44 magnum that will do literally everything for my needs that the .454 would do, and a 45-70 that will do everything and more.
 
AJC1 said:
So 460 would be even better, just more brutal.
Click to expand...

Wellll... I'll bet the .454C through a carbine is a handful. I know Ruger loads in my .45 Colt H&R aren't powderpuffs... ;)

AJC1 said:
Is there a living thing to hunt where 454 won't do the job at full power? Obviously I'm not chasing polar bear...
Click to expand...

If you are talking strictly .45's, then probably not.... within proper range.
 
Depends on what you're wanting to do with it. The limitation of .44's and .45's is going to be twist rate and cartridge OAL. The Rossi/Puma .454 has a faster twist (1-24" standard for the cartridge) and will also feed heavyweight bullets. I've only shot the Buffalo Bore 360gr load through mine and it functions perfectly.

Another point is that .454 factory loads are in the 50-55,000psi range and both the .44 and .45 versions can be loaded to that pressure. Note the 340gr .44 and 360gr .454 are the same velocity and pressure at +1450fps and 50,000psi.

As for comparisons to the .45/70, there's nothing on planet earth that can't be taken with the .454 and .44Mag with the Buffalo Bore dangerous game solid copper WFN load.

Puma%20454%2001.jpg
 
I like carbine/handgun combos. Quite a lot, in fact, though for no practical reasons I can think of off hand.

Mine tend to be pretty strange pairings, like a Swedish 8x58RD rolling block using a .32 H&R chamber converter with one of my revolvers for that chambering.

1709919563401.jpeg

www.youtube.com

Swedish Military Rolling Block Rifle, 8x58RD

This single-shot military rifle was originally manufactured by the Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori in 1870 for a rimfire black powder cartridge, and then ex...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com


Or my 32-20 Hand Ejector with a Husqvarna single shot bolt action:

3220HandEjector.jpg

Swede3220.jpg

My late buddy Scott Amend liked the pairing of his Marlin .444 levergun with his Ruger .44 Magnum Redhawk -- not entirely compatible, but by single loading .44 Magnum rounds and accepting the occasional split case, it worked well enough for him.

My own .45 choices aren't that normal, being mostly .45 Auto Rim in revolvers and .45-70 in my Ruger No.3. They don't share the same bullet diameter, so they really don't have much in common despite the .45 in the cartridge names.

I suppose if I were to pair a .45 rifle and carbine, it would be a 577/450 Martini-Henry with a .45 ACP chamber adapter and some kind of single action.

www.theshootersbox.com

577/450 Martin Henry to 45ACP Caliber Adapter

www.theshootersbox.com

Maybe with one of my Pietta Remington 1858's with conversion cylinders for .45 Auto Rim!

PiettaRemington45ARs.jpg

I could counterbore one of those chamber adapters easily enough for the Auto Rim, and Matt's Bullets offers a .45 HBWC that should be perfect.

Damn, now that idea's firmly stuck in my head!
 
I've wondered why Winchester or Marlin never released .454 lever actions, since Rossi could and did. I have a FA revolver, and probably would have bought one, just because. Yes I understand someone's favorite 45-70, .458 Win. Mag. .460 Weatherby, .50 BMG, .764.5 Loudenboomer leaves the .454 in the ballistic dust;)
 
CraigC said:
As for comparisons to the .45/70, there's nothing on planet earth that can't be taken with the .454 and .44Mag with the Buffalo Bore dangerous game solid copper WFN load.
Click to expand...
Uhhh... nothing on earth includes Elephant and Cape Buffalo. I know that both have been taken with those rounds, But I think I would want a guide with a .470 double rifle backing me up.
 
I have a 20" 460 S&W barrel for my Encore. And, the recoil is pretty stiff with my middlin' handloads. But, it will also take 45 C and 454 C cartridges...
 
AJC1 said:
I have a 45c and I have a 45-70. Could the utility of both be replaced in just one carbine? I'm thinking if marlin got its act together like Rossi and popped out a 16" carbine in 454c, from paper to hunting it would be the one and done pistol caliber carbine. 43 mag might not even want to show up to that contest... I find a lot of times 45c doesn't really amuse, and 45-70 just brutal.
Click to expand...
If there was such a thing as a "one and done" cartridge in a particular caliber, the firearms industry would close its doors next week if it took that long. Part of the reason for the proliferation of cartridges and calibers is that there's always going to be a need for something that works better in a given situation than something else, at least in the minds of a manufacturer who can sell you on the idea of "something better" and get you to buy it. And then they'll make ten different gun models in each caliber to sell you even more.

For my money, unless I was hunting larger game at distances over 100 yards, in the case of .45 caliber, I'm satisfied with .45 Colt.
 
AJC1 said:
So 460 would be even better, just more brutal. Is there a living thing to hunt where 454 won't do the job at full power? Obviously I'm not chasing polar bear...
Click to expand...

I watched a Ruger No. 1 in 460 come up for auction. In a rifle barrel, that's definitely an interesting cartridge. I passed on bidding when it went over $2K. I suppose with the No. 1 in particular, there's no reason not to go with a longer case and lower pressure. For a big-bore lever gun, I'd have to go with the 405 Win.
 
Yes, it is, although the Rossi is the only repeater in 454 that I’m aware of. The 45-70 is really in a different class given the weights it will throw. I get 2,250 fps from a 20” H&R Classic Carbine reamed to 454 with the Hornady 250 FTX, which would be the bullet to use in the Rossi. That’s really rather effective out to 150 yards.

I have an R92 in 45LC and find it a fun, handy, very useful rifle.

I am holding out for the improbable: Ruger making the 336 in 444 Marlin.
 
CraigC said:
Depends on what you're wanting to do with it. The limitation of .44's and .45's is going to be twist rate and cartridge OAL. The Rossi/Puma .454 has a faster twist (1-24" standard for the cartridge) and will also feed heavyweight bullets. I've only shot the Buffalo Bore 360gr load through mine and it functions perfectly.

Another point is that .454 factory loads are in the 50-55,000psi range and both the .44 and .45 versions can be loaded to that pressure. Note the 340gr .44 and 360gr .454 are the same velocity and pressure at +1450fps and 50,000psi.

As for comparisons to the .45/70, there's nothing on planet earth that can't be taken with the .454 and .44Mag with the Buffalo Bore dangerous game solid copper WFN load.
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Can I use the heavy 340 grain or 360 grain BB loads in the R92 .44 Magnum rifle?

Ref. post 13, the Marlin action in the 1894 or even the 1895 is not up to 55,000 psi of the 454C cartridge. The heavy +P BB/Garret/HMS bear ammo does what it does in the mid 30,000 psi range. Ruger/Marlin would need to develop a new action. Which I am sure is well within the capability of Ruger to do so. But I would rather they build the best Marlins ever and bring back their own .44 semi-auto carbine 9422.

Well, it could (possibly) be done with the present Marlin action as there are steels available today that could handle the pressure.
 
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With the 1:30 twist you would have to keep your fingers crossed when the velocity is pushed to the limit. Event then it may not stabilize the bullet!
 
When Ruger came out with the .454 SRH, every major lever rifle manufacturer scrambled to adapt their existing levergun actions to accommodate the round. None were up to the task, including the Marlin 1894/336/1895 or the Winchester Big Bore 94. Winchester wasn't making 92's at the time. The 1886 can handle the pressure but that's too much rifle for the cartridge.


tark said:
Uhhh... nothing on earth includes Elephant and Cape Buffalo. I know that both have been taken with those rounds, But I think I would want a guide with a .470 double rifle backing me up.
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Yeah, I know. They've all be taken with those cartridges, out of handguns, without the benefit of better bullets such as we have today. And if you're hunting those critters, you're gonna be backed up by a PH with a heavy stopping rifle no matter what you're hunting with.
 
3Crows said:
Can I use the heavy 340 grain or 360 grain BB loads in the R92 .44 Magnum rifle?
Click to expand...
The twist in most 92's is too slow for that heavy a bullet and it probably won't cycle through the action anyway. However, Chiappa's newer 1892's have the faster 1-20" twist and could theoretically be tuned to feed longer bullets.
 
I am of the opinion the 454 Casull is the most flexible of all the big bore pistol cartridges. It can be loaded down to "Casual" levels, or loaded to the moon, your choice there.
Flexibility to adapt......that's the 454 Casull. Depending on how you load it, you can use small pistol primers for light stuff, then the specified small rifle primers for the over 30k psi stuff. It would be a magnificent cartridge for rifle/handgun combo.
I put the stops on a few large pigs in Australia yrs back with my mates awesome Ruger #1 45/70, and it's a beast, but it doesn't have the 454s flexibility to adapt. I sure would like to have that Ruger #1 tho. That thing was a blast....literally
 
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