5.45x39 surprise ... S&W M&P ARs coming out ...

[takhtakaal]

From what I've heard, the guts are either chromed or stainless to minimize corrosion issues.

Betcha 5.45x39 is gonna skyrocket now!

 

[makanut]

UR correct sir!

 

[Coronach]

Ooooooooooooooooh!

I would love a 5.45x39 upper for my AR.

Mike

 

[takhtakaal]

I'm left wondering how they're going to use AR magazines with this round. 5.56 and 5.45 have different geometries and I can't see 5.45 happy in a practically vertical and straight magazine.

 

[JFettig]

Looks like S&W reads AR15.com. Theres a couple threads in each forum on each page about this caliber it seems.


Jon

 

[kcmarine]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, today, we bring you a special treat, using the wonders of Photoshop..."



Hah. Kidding. It's legit. But at the same time, what's the point? Sure, 5.45x39mm is cheap NOW, but there are no domestic manufacturers, the round itself holds little over the head of 5.56 NATO, and the ammo pool is finite at this point. Also, the rifle is going to cost more than the AK-74 imports that we're getting now.

More of a niche upper for fun than for serious rifle use... not calling it wimpy but I just don't see the real application of one.

 

[rbernie]

Hah. Kidding. It's legit.

I find it odd that a review of the S&W web site shows nothing on this, including ZERO press releases.

I'm probably wrong, but this doesn't sound right to me.

 

[takhtakaal]

I'm probably wrong, but this doesn't sound right to me.

I checked the distro's website and saw nothing about it. You might be right -- it's a twice-told tale.

Dunno that I see the value of an upper rather than a whole rifle in 5.45. Anybody who wanted to take advantage of the inexpensive surplus ammo coming from the former COMBLOC countries most likely has already picked up an AK74 anyway. So now they should pick up an AR upper and write off the investment in AK magazines? I do see the value of an AR upper in .22 LR, though -- great training and a small game rifle if absolutely necessary.

 

[Saiga39]

I heard on anothe forum that this was a limited run of rifles tied to Talon Arms in some way and that they no longer have any.

Could be why there is nothing, nada, nothing on S&W's website.

 

[freddyp]

Well, we have to see. The add shows a May 08 launch date.

 

[kcmarine]

Nothing on Talo's website. But it's not May 8th yet, either.

 

[bl4ckd0g]

True, the Bulgarian WASP ammo is sure to run, especially with today's hoarding trend.

However, since it's a current Russian military caliber, it wouldn't be too hard for Wolf, Monarch, and (whatever color) Bear 5.45x39 ammo to be imported in larger quantities.

I just bought a .223 Vepr last night on GB. I will be sticking with .223/5.56 due to my reloading habits.

 

[Coronach]

Minor thread drift:

I have two spam cans of WASP that I have not yet opened (I have too much Wolf to shoot, too). Does anyone know if:

1. This stuff is corosive? (I suspect "yes")

2. This stuff has the air-pocket, steel-penetrator bullet?

3. It is decently accurate, on average?

Normally I research all of that out ahead of time, but it was just so darned cheap...

Mike

 

[rbernie]

Yes, yes, and sorta.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Hah. Kidding. It's legit. But at the same time, what's the point? Sure, 5.45x39mm is cheap NOW, but there are no domestic manufacturers, the round itself holds little over the head of 5.56 NATO, and the ammo pool is finite at this point. Also, the rifle is going to cost more than the AK-74 imports that we're getting now.

Well, *if* it feeds reliably and such, consider if you're looking at taking, say, a two day tactical carbine course or some such. Let's say it calls for about 1000 rounds of long gun ammo (or more), and the instructors specifically prohibit use of reloaded ammo.

Class itself probably runs $400 or so for two days. If you're planning on doing many of those, the fact that you can still get a spam can of about 1000 rounds of 5.45x39 for $120 or so, versus $300+ for 1000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo . . . then, say, a $600 5.45mm upper pays for itself pretty quick. (If, as noted above, the set up is reliable enough for hard training.)

Cheap 5.45 will go away eventually, as we're presently benefitting from the NATO conversion of Bulgaria and other countries in that part of the world, but right now it's the cheapest thing going for long guns. It may not be an economical choice five years from now (or even one year from now), but if I were going to be doing serious training or competition on the civilian side of things right now, it's hard not to want to shoot 5.45.

 

[Coronach]

Yes, yes, and sorta.

Define "sorta". Sorta as in, "it's good milsurp, but no Swiss GP-11" or "it can hit the side of barn- hits more often when fired from inside"?

Mike

 

[takhtakaal]

Think "minute of sternum." It'll do ...

 

[HorseSoldier]

I have two spam cans of WASP that I have not yet opened (I have too much Wolf to shoot, too). Does anyone know if:

I think it's the same stuff we're issued by .mil for fam fire/training with 74s. If so . . .

1. This stuff is corosive? (I suspect "yes")

Yes. Shooting a couple mags of it fast in anything less than a brisk wind, and your eyes and face will be burning, too. I hesitate to toss words like "carcinogen" around, but it's pretty rough stuff as ammo goes.

2. This stuff has the air-pocket, steel-penetrator bullet?

Yes. From first hand observation, it is a pretty close match for green tip 5.56mm as far as close range penetration of car bodies and kevlar armor plates (actually better than green tip on the latter, but the sample size wasn't statistically significant, so I'd say it's probably similar, rather than better).

3. It is decently accurate, on average?

Will hit chest plates out to 200 or so with iron sights. It seems to group minute-of-man, at least, reliably, and I think it shoots better than 7.62x39, but I've never really tried putting it through exacting testing, shooting from a rest, etc.

 

[engineer2001]

It's not a myth - it's real. I found out about the uppers from Bryan at AIM Surplus, but he says he is taking orders but doesn't seem to have it on their site yet. MGS has it on theirs, though:

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=381

It's the crappy "military poser" 16" "M4" barrel profile (why not 14.5" w/a pinned flash supressor?), but it lets you use 30-rd mil-spec AR mags and put 27 rounds in them. I have no idea how well they feed, as no one has mentioned even owning one yet. Given that they cost ~$600, you could load up on 5.45 tins from AIM Surplus ($120/1080) before they run out and save a lot over 5.56/.223 prices these days. When the surplus runs out, Wolf makes more at a slightly increased price ($150/1000), but as long as Wolf is coming in, 5.45 shouldn't dry up.

Given that I have zero 5.45 AKs and a few ARs and stacks and stacks of 30-rd mags for them, this is very appealing to me. AK74 mags are steep right now compared to AR mags too, plus a decent AK74-type rifle (Tantal, Century-built or better) runs you about $500. The only thing that worries me is that 5.45 surplus is lacquered, and ARs are picky about that kind of thing when hot. AKs eat it and keep going. All of the new Wolf seems to be polymer-coated, though, so it doesn't worry me too much.

 

[000Buck]

Some people think of the future. Lets say you shoot 1000 rounds per year from your AR. At current ammo prices over 15 years that will be:

$4500 for 5.56 at $300/1000
$1500 for 5.45 at $100/1000

So if a person was to look at the future and plan for it, and he had the money, he could buy this upper and 15k rounds of ammo NOW, and he would save quite a bit of money over the long term.

Most people only shoot around 40 rounds per year out of their AR though and for those people this upper is not worth buying.

And as far as buying an AK instead of this because the AKs are cheaper....some people favor the AR platform and this gives them a cheap way to practice. Bulgarian 5.45 surplus is very accurate for surplus.

 

[engineer2001]

Bryan at AIM Surplus says they are taking pre-orders but don't have any in yet (should be around May 1st).

By the way, I see someone mentioned Talo and then Talon Arms. These are supposedly made by TALO (http://www.taloinc.com), not Talon. C-Products is making mags for them, and standard GI mags won't work, due to rounds sticking, reportedly. I'm out of the running, then. I don't need even more mags to buy.

 

[SaMx]

I've heard of this. Supposedly you can use normal .223 mags if you change the follower.


I'm interested in the 5.45 round, not just because of the cheapness (although that certainly helps) but also because I've heard good things about it's performance. the fact that it uses very narrow bullets, and heavier bullet weights (60 and 70 grains in wolf at least) also helps.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Does anybody know if Bushmaster's gas piston add-on kit will work with this upper? That would probably be the clenching deal to get me into the AR market.

I've heard of this. Supposedly you can use normal .223 mags if you change the follower.

Probably like people changed the followers in 5.45 AK mags during the AWB so they could use them in .223 AKs.

 

[Zundfolge]

Other than "the ammo is cheap" what is the advantage of the 5.45x39 over 5.56x45?

 

[takhtakaal]

Other than "the ammo is cheap" what is the advantage of the 5.45x39 over 5.56x45?

I've seen a video on Youtube suggesting that the 5.45 is a significantly better penetrating round than 5.56.

You might look about the 'net for evidence of the same. I'm sure for every 5.45 zealot you'll find an equal and opposite caliber naysayer.