5.56 AR stopping power (and the x39 and 5.45 competition)

[DeepSouth]

Assuming all other things are equal, bullet location, angle etc. I don’t believe their will enough difference to tell. Of all the factors, if it’s a 223 or a 7.62x39 is probably the least important.

So far as military applications, if effectiveness is what they cared about they wouldn’t be using fmj’s.

This seems even more silly than the 9mm vs 45 debate.

 

[arsterling180]

And maybe not with that monster scope that does everything but stream netflix, but a more sensible DMR galls.

Now, that XM250 has SOC written all over it. Why hump a M240B, when you can have a suppressed weapon of Minimi size?

The question will be if they show up at Ft Myers before Crane.

Someone will figure out how to run Doom on it.

 

[CapnMac]

how to run Doom on it.

LoL. Not sure if you could emulate "down" far enough on Win 7 to run the original Doom

 

[someguy2800]

No I am not "negating" my previous statements. Man is the most dangerous creature out there. I have been in combat several times, as others here have too. We know that that the 5.56x45 works and has been working since the 1960's. Myself and others have seen people shot with 5.56x45, 5.45x39, and 7.62x39.

I don't think anyone in the conversation is arguing that its not effective. The point we are making using animals as an analog is that if you can't always drop a 200 lb animal on the spot with a 300 win mag, then it is an unrealistic expectation to expect it to happen with a 5.56 or 7.62x39. That doesn't mean they are ineffective, its just how the physiology of mammals works.

 

[d2wing]

Me either as long as I had someone competent feeding it. I have known a couple to be jamomatics, though.

I learned to be careful not twist the belt or get the ammo can out of alignment with the feed ramp.

 

[Ignition Override]

The Gun: Chivers, C. J.: 8601420079847: Amazon.com: Books

Chivers was a captain in the USMC Infantry before he became a writer.

IIRC, Chivers researched a fair bit of the initial trials of the Armalite/Colt prototypes for the M-16, covered somewhere in the first part of this book.

-----Did the Dept. of Defense (DoD) actually do an evaluation using human heads, when comparing the .223/5.56 with the 7.62x39 round?

I seem to recall that the DoD locked away the results of what their 5.56 rd. did in those tests.
This isn't an attempt to say anything "between the lines". Unlike many responders here, I'm not qualified to judge any comparison, but am simply curious about the question where I used an 'emoji'.

 

[C-grunt]

Neat video from Garand Thumb.

Testing 5.45 7N6 ammo in synthetic gel.

 

[Airborne77]

Let's look at this from a hunters view although with proper bullet selection and placement 223/556 is capable to take large game however in general it is seen as a ground hog / prairie dog /coyote round....we're as the 7.62x39mm is seen as a close range large game round....having been a hunter for many years can say that the 7.62x39 is very capable 200 and in deer cartridgehitting the shoulder bone and exiting on not so great shot placement....I would not use a 556 for this purpose unless I had to and then I would want perfect shots with something like a 60 grain nosler partition to get good fragmentation and hopefully enough penetration

 

[Airborne77]

From a military point of view 7.62x39 will shoot through things much better than 556 yes u can carry more ammo with 556 but you'll have to shoot them more also...556 will barely shoot through a 5" tree...where as 7.62x39 will go through 16" or so ....if in war times most targets will be behind something after the first few shots at least the smart ones

 

[someguy2800]

Let's look at this from a hunters view although with proper bullet selection and placement 223/556 is capable to take large game however in general it is seen as a ground hog / prairie dog /coyote round....we're as the 7.62x39mm is seen as a close range large game round....having been a hunter for many years can say that the 7.62x39 is very capable 200 and in deer cartridgehitting the shoulder bone and exiting on not so great shot placement....I would not use a 556 for this purpose unless I had to and then I would want perfect shots with something like a 60 grain nosler partition to get good fragmentation and hopefully enough penetration

I've always been of the same opinion but the more people you talk too that actually do use 223 for deer, you really don't find many detractors. I would like to try a 75 gr gold dot just to see for myself but I have so much other stuff to use that I probably never will.

 

[Airborne77]

I've always been of the same opinion but the more people you talk too that actually do use 223 for deer, you really don't find many detractors. I would like to try a 75 gr gold dot just to see for myself but I have so much other stuff to use that I probably never will.

Same here I believe it's capable but why I have a nice 257 weatherby for that purpose.....but I like where your going with the 75 grn gold dot

 

[Airborne77]

Same here I believe it's capable but why I have a nice 257 weatherby for that purpose.....but I like where your going with the 75 grn gold dot

I do like a heavier bullet in case I hit bone or have a bad angle or possibly small unseen twigs in front of the target

 

[someguy2800]

Same here I believe it's capable but why I have a nice 257 weatherby for that purpose.....but I like where your going with the 75 grn gold dot

I'm with you. I have lots of other centerfire rifles that are more capable (or at least I perceive them as being more capable) so I also don't have a compelling reason. I guess I would just like to see for myself just in case I'm ever in a situation where I need it for that. If the gold dots shoot to a similar point of aim as my typical 75 gr BTHP load it would be convenient to have a few on hand.

 

[Airborne77]

Yep, for me it would be an extreme last resort to use fmj....years ago as a teen I made a perfect heart lung shot with a 30-06 using a fmj ...after 45 minutes of searching for blood it was time to give up and go home. Lucky for me the deer was lying dead in that direction. Never again . I won't even use solids in a .22 rimfire for squirrels...hollow point have a much better effect

 

[C-grunt]

From a military point of view 7.62x39 will shoot through things much better than 556 yes u can carry more ammo with 556 but you'll have to shoot them more also...556 will barely shoot through a 5" tree...where as 7.62x39 will go through 16" or so ....if in war times most targets will be behind something after the first few shots at least the smart ones

Where did you get this information about the amount if tree each round will go through?

 

[Airborne77]

Where did you get this information about the amount if tree each round will go through?

Personal experience with both rounds...I have had an sks since they were $123 with 5 boxes of the old norinco ammo(steel core)....and have used m-16's and ar-15's for quite awhile.

 

[Airborne77]

If you want the ultimate, get an FN SCAR in 7.62x51mm NATO, or an AR-10 or even an older pattern G3 or FAL and load them up with Winchester 120 grain PDX1 .308:



It takes the whole 5.56mm expanding/fragmenting concept and turns it up to 11. You’re dumping twice as much muzzle energy into the same length wound channel and the damage is... well, see for yourself.

There are also several surprisingly lethal soft point options in 7.62x39mm. The 125 grain Barnaul loads will get you there.

Really, they’re all excellent. Personally, I’d chose 5.56 every time, though. It’s fast lightweight bullet tends to not overpenetrate as badly as other examples, sometimes even less than something like a 9mm or buckshot believe it or not. That makes it an excellent urban defense round and with today’s tactical loads, it absolutely is highly effective and much more so than any service caliber handgun. It’s really all the power you need.

Here in lies the problem....in the military when the enemy gets behind something the 556 can't punch through u have other bigger more powerfull options. As a civilian your rifle is it . I personally like a 308 to do some heavy hitting. I do have loads with all 3 ....556, 7.62x39, 7.62x51 expandinding and fmj that shoot very similar ballistically out to 300 with the first 2 and 600 with the latter so u could use expanding for the first 2 or 3 rounds followed by fmj for penetration after that or just have separate mags and mark them.

 

[Airborne77]

here's a good article about stopping power in combat. Sorry not great with computers you'll ha e to type it in to read the article

 

[CapnMac]

556 will barely shoot through a 5" tree...where as 7.62x39 will go through 16" or so ....if in war times most targets will be behind something after the first few shots at least the smart ones

That would be true is it were on one-n-one.

Hard to hide behind a single tree if there are 4 people shooting at you and each of them is spaces 5-10m apart. And, there will be (or will meant to be) somebody laying down suppressing fires so as to ensure the "bad guys" are only hiding behind specific trees in specific areas and angles to your own people.

Combat is also significantly stressful. It's generally not a situation of "take a shot, then stop and observe for results." It's more a case of "see a target, send 4-5 rounds towards same, and keep moving." Ammunition is expended, on average, at the same rate no matter which ammunition it is. This is where having twice the quantity of ammo for the same weight carries the task.

That "edge" teases at all large military organizations. That's why PLA flirted with the 4.8x39. that small percentage "edge" was seen to be potentially a "winner." (Turned out to be a logistical nightmare, and was retired.)

 

[C-grunt]

Personal experience with both rounds...I have had an sks since they were $123 with 5 boxes of the old norinco ammo(steel core)....and have used m-16's and ar-15's for quite awhile.

My personal experience differs. While I think that trying to shoot people through barriers is usually a waste of ammo, Ive shot a lot of stuff with 5.56 including trees. Ive seen 5.56 go through a bit more than 5 inch wide trees.

Seems like these tests are more similar to my experiences.

 

[robin banks]

remember. wars are decided by a round that drops 6 inches less at 600 yds then the other guys round does

 

[C-grunt]

remember. wars are decided by a round that drops 6 inches less at 600 yds then the other guys round does

Please explain from your experience why a flatter shooting round is bad in combat?

 

[CapnMac]

remember. wars are decided by a round that drops 6 inches less at 600 yds then the other guys round does

Actually, wars are decided by whose supply train can bring up enough artillery rounds before the other guy can.
While occupying the better ground, more often than not.

Which often required having secure enough sealanes to lift the logistics tonnage the supply lines, themselves, require.

This is not new. The French had between 5,000 and 8,000 more crossbows than the English had at Agincourt. But, the French only had about 50 bolts per crossbow, and the English had entire wagon-loads of clothyard shafts, some accounts setting the number as several hundred arrows per archer.
The crossbows had much flatter trajectories, fired far heavier projectiles, and at greater velocity than the longbows.
The English archers were able to get about 5 rounds off before 2 crossbow bolts could be launched. Longbows of the age were in the 125-175# pull versus 750# & 900# pull crossbows.

Forced into a column, and having to attack down one hill and up another crossing through a muddy swale minced the French. Agincourt was in 1415, and can still teach us valuable lessons 607 years later.

 

[tark]

the original review of M16 performance in Vietnam spoke glowingly of its "killing power" compared to the m14.

The early ARs and possibly the 16s had a 1-14 twist. The bullet was barely stable in flight and it instantly tumbled and fragmented upon impact. This may have been the reason for the gruesome wounds.

You might be amazed at what feral hogs do once their adrenaline has dumped.

The only game animal I ever killed was a small feral sow. I hit her with a 500 grain 45-70 bullet pushed by a case full of 2F. The bullet hit her below her chin and exited her rear end.

She grunted, hunched up and then walked off. We found her fifty feet away, still breathing. A finishing shot ended it.

Those animals are tough!

 

[tark]

remember. wars are decided by a round that drops 6 inches less at 600 yds then the other guys round does

???