Lord Teapot
Member
go with a 12 gauge, 20 gauge is too small imo.
5.56 or 20 gauge
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mljdeckard
Member
There is nothing at all wrong with either option. That 20 ga, shooting #4 buck or a similar option, can put out a lot of lead very quickly. The main reason I wouldn't like it is that most of the accessories you will find are for standard 12 ga models.
An M-4gery is fine too. We train petite females to handle them all the time. With the adjustable stock, she can pull it in as tight as she needs to and be able to fire it without worrying about nasty recoil. For me, I would use a Hornady TAP load for HD.
An M-4gery is fine too. We train petite females to handle them all the time. With the adjustable stock, she can pull it in as tight as she needs to and be able to fire it without worrying about nasty recoil. For me, I would use a Hornady TAP load for HD.
Spec ops Grunt
Member
What does she like more? That's the real question.
sixgunner455
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AR. 30 rounds, easy to hit with from contact range on out past 200 meters, light recoil, easy to make multiple shots/hits, easy to reload, lots of loading options, you already have one, and she already knows how to run it.
Shotgun. 7 rounds, easy to hit with out to about 25 meters, heavy recoil, repeat shots are more work, a few loading options, and you'd need to buy a new gun that she'd then have to learn how to run. Nothing wrong with that particularly, but it's money you don't really need to spend.
AR FTW.
Shotgun. 7 rounds, easy to hit with out to about 25 meters, heavy recoil, repeat shots are more work, a few loading options, and you'd need to buy a new gun that she'd then have to learn how to run. Nothing wrong with that particularly, but it's money you don't really need to spend.
AR FTW.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
To my knowledge, Box o'Truth hasn't done much (if any) testing of .223 civilian defensive loads, just FMJ, and 55gr JHP/SP behave a lot differently in wallboard than FMJ does.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html
I do echo the comments upthread that she should shoot what she is comfortable with. With appropriate ammunition choice, any of the foregoing (20-gauge, .223, a revolver, whatever) will be suitable.
And I also agree about the risk of novice shooters short-stroking a pump under stress, or accidentally ejecting live shells instead of firing them. (I know someone who did the latter while trying to shoot his first deer...)
Zak Smith
Member
The "system" failure rate for a pump shotgun is higher than that of a semi-auto shotgun, or an AR-15. This is because it is pretty common to induce gun malfunctions under stress with a pump. Running a pump flawlessly takes regular and consistent practice. Also, once your, 2, 3, or 7 or whatever rounds are fired from the shotgun, you need to reload. Reloading a shotgun under stress is slow even for people who train all the time. It's a perishable skill and a fine motor skill. And you need the shells somewhere you can easily get to them (ideally in a certain orientation). AR-15-- just push-pull another 30-round magazine.
Source for data: shooting, ROing, and observing 3-Gun matches for the last 8 years.
Source for data: shooting, ROing, and observing 3-Gun matches for the last 8 years.
kingcheese
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id say it depends a lot on how close the houses next to you are, if they are real close, you might run the risk of over penatration, not supper likely to go through your house and into your neighbors, but possible
id say a shotgun for most cases, but id suggest ussing a variety of loads, mostly of bird and buckshot, but if no one lives coses to you, id say buckshot and slugs
id say a shotgun for most cases, but id suggest ussing a variety of loads, mostly of bird and buckshot, but if no one lives coses to you, id say buckshot and slugs
Cop Bob
Member
If it is for your Wife, keeping her happy is the overriding factor.. Either is a good choice...
If she doesn't like it, something about it makes her uncomfortable, she will not use it.. Close in, it is about like getting hit with a slug, just does not penetrate like one..
Just about ANY shotgun load is adequate for HD.. even birdshot.. I know that it would not be my 1st choice, but it will work, and work well.. in the distances encountered within most homes, the spread would be minor, and a solid hit is a solid hit...
If she chooses,,, operative words here ... SHE CHOOSES... the AR.. I would avoid ball ammo, inside use CQB.. my 1st choice would be, as previously mentioned something in the 52 gr range, the ballistic tips are a good choice.. and if you can get it, Frangible..
Sportsman's Guide has a clearance sale on it this week...
Item # 161608-000-000 ... Link: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=558372
If she doesn't like it, something about it makes her uncomfortable, she will not use it.. Close in, it is about like getting hit with a slug, just does not penetrate like one..
Just about ANY shotgun load is adequate for HD.. even birdshot.. I know that it would not be my 1st choice, but it will work, and work well.. in the distances encountered within most homes, the spread would be minor, and a solid hit is a solid hit...
If she chooses,,, operative words here ... SHE CHOOSES... the AR.. I would avoid ball ammo, inside use CQB.. my 1st choice would be, as previously mentioned something in the 52 gr range, the ballistic tips are a good choice.. and if you can get it, Frangible..
Sportsman's Guide has a clearance sale on it this week...
Item # 161608-000-000 ... Link: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=558372
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dkk73
Member
Well, I'd not like to get shot with either, terminal ballistics aside.
I'd think, FWIW, the main issue is operation and manual-of-arms. The AR is not a simple gun, and drilling failure, chamber check, etc, requires a fair time investment and familiarity with the gun. Heck, I like it and I don't feel adequately "current" much of the time. If I'm not recently practiced, I tend to reach for simpler guns even for pistol carry.
Not sure what how your wife feels about it and how much time she's invested, but there's a heck of a lot to be said for simple manual-of-arms. IMHO.
I'd think, FWIW, the main issue is operation and manual-of-arms. The AR is not a simple gun, and drilling failure, chamber check, etc, requires a fair time investment and familiarity with the gun. Heck, I like it and I don't feel adequately "current" much of the time. If I'm not recently practiced, I tend to reach for simpler guns even for pistol carry.
Not sure what how your wife feels about it and how much time she's invested, but there's a heck of a lot to be said for simple manual-of-arms. IMHO.
JerryM
Member
A 20 ga with buck shot would be my choice. Years ago my stepdad had a Rem 1100 20 ga, and some time after his death Mom asked me to get her one. She did not have any problem shooting it.
I would go with the SA as one who is not well versed in operating a pump shotgun can get in trouble.
lt will also be less expensive than a black gun.
Regards,
Jerry
I would go with the SA as one who is not well versed in operating a pump shotgun can get in trouble.
lt will also be less expensive than a black gun.
Regards,
Jerry
sm
member
I beg to differ.
You see, the only shotgun I have now, is a H&R Topper, Youth, 20 ga single shot.
<thread drift>
You see I was raised where a shotgun was kept behind the back door, and most often it was a Youth 20 ga single shot. The reason being, a bigger person can effectively shoot a smaller gun, where a smaller person cannot effectively shoot a bigger gun. Meaning anyone from a kid, to grandma, to parent could and did use the "back of the kitchen door" shotgun.
Another thing, that while some know, but many do not, is I was Mentored, and in turn assisted Veterans, Battered Women, Abused Kids, and the Elderly.
Again, the Youth, Single shot 20 ga was often the first gun I got a Battered Women ( and similar) up to speed with. The reason being, it is simple to operate, and the lady feels Safe in its operation. Especially if she has kid/kids.
You have to keep in mind, some of these ladies, had been beaten, shot, knifed, and in fighting, had busted fingernails, fingers, along with whatever else.
Fact of the matter is, I can and have gotten a lady up to speed in 15 minutes or less, during "serious times" with a single shot shotgun, give me 30 minutes and I will get them up to speed with a revolver.
I just turned 56 years old, and while I am no big deal, I do know for a fact, over all the years, assisting and giving private instructions, as I was mentored to do so (pass it forward) what is what.
Strategy & Tactics is the name of this sub-forum. Lee, and some others know me personally, and "of my background, and experiences".
In the instance of detached retina, and other injuries, which dictated "No Recoil" from doctors, surgeons, and physical therapists, The Marlin 60 and Rem Nylon 66 were used. Meaning back in the day, me and mine gave these ladies, and other persons mentioned earlier gun/guns to use.
How raised, what you do.
Now I have been privileged, honored, and so much more, to have these ladies recover, get over the bad situations in life, and have some fun. Teaching them to shoot skeet, and do some dove/bird hunting and again the Rem 1100 in 20 , Win 1400 were most often used. Some even felled deer using slugs.
And, I know for a fact, a lady with a Rem 1100 in 20 ga can stop a threat. And that is all I will say about that.
My point for drifting is simple: This is S&T, there is no hardware solution to a software problem,and the lady HAS to feel confident, safe, and LIKE the darn gun, whatever it is, or else they will not learn it, practice with it, use it if the time comes, nor have fun with it.
My situations were different, as I and mine did choose for ladies and the others the "tools" for persons in a bad way. Time was critical, an action had to be taken now, and matters were serious. WE keep a lot of folks from harm, or being harmed again.
Our firearms chosen, such as the single shot 20 ga, were based on some serious reasoning, and proven, and still applicable today.
Steve
MikeNice
Member
I know this is a three page thread and all kinds of ideas have been kicked around. So, I'll add mine for the fun of it.
I would stick with the AR since you allready have it. I would personally load it with Hornady 75gr BTHP from the TAP line. It is designed for deep penetration in flesh. However, it will shed about 66% of its weight. So, if she misses it will come apart going through any walls.
If you want to buy a 20ga and use this scenario as an excuse go for it. I have seen tests showing that a 20ga 7/8" slug can penetrate over 15" of gel, expand to .64"s and retain more than 390gr of weight. Mixed with a good #1 buck shot load it would be just fine.
My opinion YMMV
I would stick with the AR since you allready have it. I would personally load it with Hornady 75gr BTHP from the TAP line. It is designed for deep penetration in flesh. However, it will shed about 66% of its weight. So, if she misses it will come apart going through any walls.
If you want to buy a 20ga and use this scenario as an excuse go for it. I have seen tests showing that a 20ga 7/8" slug can penetrate over 15" of gel, expand to .64"s and retain more than 390gr of weight. Mixed with a good #1 buck shot load it would be just fine.
My opinion YMMV
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