5.7x28 for defensive carry

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My friends in Norway on FSK (Norway's special forces) have weapons in 5.7 and don't care for it. In their real-world used with those guys, reports (from each of the men I spoke to who had shot people with it) are that penetration is great, but that not a lot of damage is done, and that several rounds went through-and-through without doing a whole lot to stop the attacker. Mind you, they use ball ammo, which you would presumably not use.
 
overweight, very bulky, very long length of pull, and generally not a good pistol, surely not for self defense
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Overweight? A FiveseveN fully loaded weighs less than a Glock 19 that's unloaded. How much do you think it should weigh? I've been impressed by it's accuracy and never noticed anything wrong with the trigger.
 
I like mine and enjoy reloading it, even though it is time consuming. It's not small, but it is light. I have no issue with the round. I also have the PS90 and an AR upper which is great with the 50 round mag.
 
PabloJ said:
If 5,7x28 will give you sense of better safety get one. I do not bother with stuff like that because if it is meant for me to die I will die and if not I will live and nothing I do is going to change that. If it is meant for me to die from terrorist attack I will just meet Jesus a little sooner than I would otherwise.
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+1

Amen to that. I hear it's nice up their. I can't wait to meet Jesus.
 
You're normally more rational/open-minded about oddball firearms ideas than this, Jason :confused: and usually much more well-informed
"to be quite blunt its internal ballistics are complete crap.. sure its a high velocity, accurate round, but it hits barely better than a .22lr"
Might want to at least put a 'magnum' before that if you want any pretense of credibility here. The comparison with 22WMR is par for the course (and ever more accurate with each dumbed-down incarnation of ammo FNH debuts), but this is the first I've seen someone claim it's on par with 22LR.

"youre going to NEED 20 rounds to do the same job a 9 mil or 45acp can do with half that..."
It's not even close to only half as effective per hit. Less, but still far nastier than any 38/9mm FMJ load that worked for decades (not as good as modern loads for the same, but hardly ineffective). Hogs and deer have been harvested without incident using the pistol (I recall some had concerns using the rifle & certain ammo on hogs, since the added velocity was basically exceeding the limits of the Vmax bullet being used, resulting in a shallower wound)

"lets not forget the only pistol really chambered for it is the FN five-seven.."
Correct...
"Overweight"
Have you held one? Most folks hate 'em because they feel like a toy, which in turn makes them think the pistol should be priced lower (the steel in a 1911 frame is worth 300$ after all :rolleyes:)
"very bulky, very long length of pull"
Sorta-kinda to the former if a G17 is considered gargantuan, but not in an objective sense to comparable pistol designs. No worse on a belt holster than any other service piece. Absolutely to the latter, but no more than the 7.62x25 grip designs out there.
"generally not a good pistol, surely not for self defense"
Absolutely disagree with the former; they are quite well made and designed. I can tell you have not messed with one. I only partially agree on the SD front, simply because of the pistol's public perception (God help you if you shoot the wrong kind of person with one in unfriendly territory) and because a full-size duty pistol is less likely to be carried consistently.

"...get a .22 TCM and you have something exponentially better than 5.7x28mm"
They're like comparing 308 & 30-06 (assuming 308 was held to a slightly lower pressure in factory ammo). The extra velocity of the 22TCM (a respectable 300fps bump vs SS197SR; SS190 is a hair lighter bullet & a hair faster, so likely comparable) basically gets another two inches penetration, and identical 'expansion' (.3" diameter!) that is more reliably attained than the slower round.

I still have yet to see a half-decent direct comparison of the two in gel/etc., which is what irks me the most (it's neither Armscor's nor FNH's fault, I know). The only Youtube back-to-back is on milk jugs and the TCM wasn't very impressive to me (spoiler alert: it appears the TCM bullet is too short to tumble under any circumstance). There's a good comparison with 22mag that shows the 5.7 more comparable (from a pistol) than you'd think, but in a good way.

I also suspect the gap 'twixt the two will narrow to nothing if not negative in short order with a gun-friendly administration overseeing ammunition imports (no worries that SS190/etc will be banned at a moment's notice any longer), though lobbying from owners may be necessary to get word to Belgium on that front.
 
PabloJ said:
If 5,7x28 will give you sense of better safety get one. I do not bother with stuff like that because if it is meant for me to die I will die and if not I will live and nothing I do is going to change that. If it is meant for me to die from terrorist attack I will just meet Jesus a little sooner than I would otherwise.
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So have you stopped wearing your seatbelt or looking both ways before crossing the street. If your future is already written and unchangable what is the point.
 
FIVETWOSEVEN said:
Overweight? A FiveseveN fully loaded weighs less than a Glock 19 that's unloaded. How much do you think it should weigh? I've been impressed by it's accuracy and never noticed anything wrong with the trigger.
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for the small amount of energy and poor ballistics that gutless wonder produces, yeah, its overweight, takes two shots to do what that glock 19 can do with one... i mean, if i want crap ballistics suitable for killing rabbits, give me a 15oz walther P22 and the cheaper ammo that goes with it

the problem with these really high velocity rounds in pistols, they generally dont get enough barrel length to pick up enough velocity to really do much.. heck, it takes a 10" barrel on a P90 just to achieve the LOWER end of a 9mm fired from a 4" pistol

40 grains at 1675fps isnt impressive at all, heck a 30 luger will shoot a bullet more than double that weight at almost the same velocity from the same barrel length
 
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If the ballistics are all that bad, nobody died at Fort Hood, right?

I don't carry mine, but it seems reasonable as a "house gun". It's easy to shoot for me as a Certified Olde Phart--and if one hit doesn't work, I figure to keep on with the happy noise. :D
 
you get 40 grains at 1675fps out of its 4.8 inch barrel with SS197 ammo.. this translates into about 249 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.. LESS than a hot .380 and closer to that of buffalo bore .32acp ammunition.... would you carry .32acp for self defense even if you had 20 of them?.. i'll take 17+1 rounds of 9mm over that any day

not to mention its about $0.50/rd for that barely better than .32acp 5.7x28mm ammo
 
"i mean, if i want crap ballistics suitable for killing rabbits, give me a 15oz walther P22 and the cheaper ammo that goes with it"
Run the numbers; it's more like a step up from 22WMR, or a 5.56 after a few hundred yards. Check the gel tests; it ain't no ice-pick, the rounds typically tumble, fragment, or expand (reliably-ish in the case of SS197SR which is the slowest load) depending on the bullet design.

"the problem with these really high velocity rounds in pistols, they generally dont get enough barrel length to pick up enough velocity to really do much"
Query: how much is required? The duty loads of the 5.7 routinely do +2100fps for Pete's sake. It's not gonna blow crap up like a 22-250, if that's what your expectation is :p

Comparing the 5.7 to rounds almost 3X heavier isn't exactly the most effective way to determine anything about it, btw. Apples and 45-70s. Gel tests are much more illuminating, and show just how many angels we've been fretting over on the pinhead (it's the same ~1ft of penetration as seen for all duty rounds).

"40 grains at 1675fps isnt impressive at all, heck a 30 luger will shoot a bullet more than double that weight at almost the same velocity from the same barrel length"
That 40gr load is the heaviest one out there for 5.7, specifically formulated by FNH to be the most telegenic ("sporting round"); hardly the best load for defense, although they are pretty. Even still, ballistic effect is impressive in some ways (I'm guessing this one's a PS90 so the fragging is more severe)
1972nd9.jpg
Total depth was about 11" in this one (I think due to the tumbling dynamics the 5.7 bullets rely on, there seems to be a greater sensitivity to gel calibration, where some folks get +/- about an inch --this one on the low end-- test-to-test. 9mm seems slightly easier to get consistent ~12" depths on, batch to batch, from what I can tell). Perm wound cavity was nearly 3" wide...

The terminal effects are situation-sensitive, though; somehow MAC got the exact same round from the exact same SMG barrel to neatly mushroom :confused:. Bone-based tests are even more varied, with some splintering the member into shrapnel, others neatly expanding the bullet, others deflecting the bullet trajectory. While wholly unscientific, meat-based tests are consistently gruesome compared to larger rounds (4" diameter cavity), though only about 3/4ths as deep as 9mm. I think the only conclusion one can draw is that penetration is likely a bit less, and damage up to that point likely a bit more, compared to much heavier pistol bullets of similar kinetic energy. More unsatisfying than dramatic one way or the other, but that basically is the claim made by the round's proponents.

"not to mention its about $0.50/rd for that barely better than .32acp 5.7x28mm ammo"
1) 32acp gets really short shrift, in part due to ancient FMJ/cast ammo, part due to tiny blowback guns with neither the barrel length to develop velocity, nor the mass to restrain its modest pressure & recoil. Also the recent popularity of the 'vastly more powerful' 380 of mostly similar performance but larger diameter (deja vu; that's basically the relationship between 5.7x28 and 9mm)
2) It's selling for like $.35/rd anymore, which isn't terrible for jacketed hollowpoints (sadly, the actual cheap ball ammo, is unavailable to us because of Reagan)

TCB
 
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compare that gel test above to 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp, .357 sig, 10mm, 38 super, 9x23 winchester, 30 luger, 7.62x25, or any other handgun caliber of that range and that gel test above is not even the least bit impressive and by no means does 3 more rounds make up for its shortcomings

Pistol_Round_Terminal_Ballistics.jpg.cf.jpg
 
for the small amount of energy and poor ballistics that gutless wonder produces, yeah, its overweight, takes two shots to do what that glock 19 can do with one... i mean, if i want crap ballistics suitable for killing rabbits, give me a 15oz walther P22 and the cheaper ammo that goes with it
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Where do you even get this info from? Looking at the way the ammo looks and the FPS on the box?

You might want to educate yourself here.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/5.7x28mm/5.7x28mm.html
 
I like the Five Seven. Gun fits my hand fantastically. I love FN quality. Do I pack it around all day. Nope, But....

I know I can unload a 30 round magazine on "target" faster than I could get maybe 10 rounds on "target" out of my M&P 9 mm at 20 yards. Move the targets to 50 yards and now the Five Seven really starts to shine.

If you hit an target with either they will go down. Multiple targets and switching between targets the Five Seven would make more sense. Close range fixed single target then my vote would be a different caliber.

I think the OP's idea of a effective multi target gun using the Five Seven is a plausible one. Especially targets at distance.
 
"The most brutal part of the zombie apocalypse is pretending I'm not excited."- Deer Hunter
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This is one of the best quotes I've read. I'm sorry to say that I more than partially agree! :evil:
 
"Move the targets to 50 yards and now the Five Seven really starts to shine."
Can't be said enough how easy it is to engage targets at distance with the gun (I think the light weight plays a factor, as you definitely don't get as fatigued from the longer duration spent aiming. The bullet non-drop out to like 100yds helps, too)

"the 5.7 gel test above doesnt look that much better than this .32acp FMJ test.. though, at least those 32 FMJs made it past 12""
Might wanna stop by the optometrist on the way to the library for a physics primer:
-32acp; <2" temporary cavity with a straight-thru non-deforming bullet
-5.7x28; >2" permanent (shredded) cavity trailing bits of shredded bullet jacket along 11" of overall penetration along diverged paths

Not sure why you're trolling the 5.7 guys all of a sudden; you're usually much more reasoned in these technical discussions. I've been up front about the pro's/con's of the round and platforms, I'm not sure why you insist on connoting it with a low pressure rimfire half its speed at the same weight, or centerfire half its speed and 50% heavier. I would, however, love to hear exactly why the 22TCM is far superior, apart from ostensibly cheaper reloading supplies, ~150fps velocity with non-fragmenting bullet, and domestic production (less political influence on bullet design; probably the only real advantage) --oh, and the fact that the chamber neck of that 1911 has to be frequently cleaned for reliable function (I'm guessing it's a powder selection thing; the 5.7x28 is extremely clean, especially for a blowback, with no detectable fouling per shot)

"you do realize the tests your evidently referring to are done with a P90s 10 inch barrel, if not the 16" barrel of a PS90.. so unless youre using a P90 for defensive carry youre getting less than 1700fps on a 40 grain bullet"
I mentioned you lose 300fps off the P90 barrel going to the pistol (~20% drop) for a bit less than 1700fps for SS197SR. Penetration often goes up slightly for the pistol with this round, since the bullet isn't as badly damaged ;). I also mentioned that the duty rounds still run 2100fps. You are fixating on the slowest offering available in 5.7x28, a round weighted down so it won't punch a level II vest (which even a 22mag will). May I compare it to 9mm Glisenti figures for the purposes of this conversation?

Like I've said several times, you have to be willing to accept that the round operates on different principles than most of the soft lead slugs out there. It's not fantasy, but it also isn't reflected in bullet mass & velocity figures alone. As always, those figures are more useful the more similar the rounds being compared are, and 9mm is 3X heavier.

TCB
 
I think the OP's idea of a effective multi target gun using the Five Seven is a plausible one. Especially targets at distance.
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This encapsulates the intent of my original post.

Still, the conversation has been informative for me personally. Ultimately, the 5.7 is too niche for me at this point, but I certainly wouldn't turn one away, nor would I regret having it in a "Paris-like" scenario. Under stress, I'd welcome the steady shooter, and I'd go for the head as much as my nerves would allow. I don't mean to sound crass or filled with bravado, but I've made the decision to act in such a scenario, and I'd be glad to have the FiveseveN. Though I'd probably be "gladder" to have my G17.

For the following comments- I'm not making any judgements nor do I mean to be insensitive. I offer the following observations in the interest of further understanding ballistics from a practical standpoint. I'm not drawing a comparison between terrorists and a teenager, self defense vs. a justified or unjustified shooting.

Regarding guns/ammo, I watched the video of the teen shot by police in Chicago (a year ago), now being inexplicably shown on every outlet, certain to invite riots in major cities across the US. I assume the officer who did the shooting was using 9mm or .40 caliber (please don't skewer me if I'm incorrect- I truly don't know). My point is that within the first 5 shots or so, the teen went down as though paralyzed, most likely from one particular shot that was "well placed." I don't mean well placed by intent necessarily, but one of the (unbelievable) 16 shots, rather than the cumulative effect (the officer kept shooting after the teen was down).

The illustrative point I'm trying to make is that while we discuss the perfect caliber for whatever scenario, human tissue does not react well to any caliber. Any well placed caliber is going to have an adverse affect on the human organism; some are going to be more devastating than others that's for certain.

Body armor, heavy clothing, suicide vests, drugs, etc... alter the dynamic. But the fact still remains that a well placed shot on human tissue is going to have an effect. So from a self defense or proactive effort to stop a bad guy standpoint, the well-placed shot is one's best bet, in my opinion more so than the caliber.
 
I think in a situation where I had a handgun and was facing numerous assailants with full-auto rifles, my main priority would be trying to avoid getting their attention anyway, not shooting at them in an across-the-room firefight.
 
you do realize the tests your evidently referring to are done with a P90s 10 inch barrel, if not the 16" barrel of a PS90.. so unless youre using a P90 for defensive carry youre getting less than 1700fps on a 40 grain bullet
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along side the FiveseveN, did you even look at the data or just see one listed barrel length and came back here?
 
I've never fired the 5.7, but I've been a couple lanes away from someone shooting one a couple of times, and I don't like the thing simply because it's LOUD! As you would expect from its extraordinarily high (for a handgun) SAAMI pressure.

If you ever fired a full magazine of those indoors without hearing protection, I'll bet you'd never forget it. But, hey, maybe your target would have a heart attack if you missed, or at least get distracted by his need for clean pants.

I do not see the point of this cartridge. (No spitzer bullet jokes, please.)
 
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