50 Beowulf vs 458 socom vs 450 bushmaster from 12" barrel

[adcoch1]

Hello all, I am doing research for an sbr thumper upper, and i am trying to weigh out the values of these three big bore ar15 cartridges, aganst say, a 12" 12 ga slug gun... I am looking for experience about the big bores from short barrels, accuracy, crono info, etc, maybe even preferred loads.. Since I'm not presently shooting any of them, i dont have a bias, so which is best in a short barrel, and which are better than a sbs slug gun in 12 ga( if a comparison can even be made). What say you, THR?

 

[Varminterror]

Any of the 3 are quite efficient in the short barrel. Plenty of short barrel .458soc velocity data is out there, I've seen a bit for the bush as well - never have searched for being pistol/SBR data though. Big bores and small cases = efficient burn at short lengths. Short barrel shotguns are a hoot, but absent shooting multiple projectiles, don't compete with SBR's.

The use of readily available 45cal rifle bullets in the Soc is what decides for me which to choose.

The SiCo Hybrid 46 is sufficient for SBR .458soc use, once mine gets out of jail, I'll be able to comment on efficiency in a 10.5".

 

[LoonWulf]

Honestly i think all three of the standard ar big bores are pretty similar.

The .450 has a better selection of lighter bullets, and the .50 has an extra .5 cal of initial dia. So you really have to weigh the advantages of each and your expected uses.

My guns primarily a hunting rifle, which ive shot stuff as large as feral cows with. So the .458 was a better choice for me as its particular advantages are head spacing on the shoulder. And wider range of mid to heavy weight bullets, being the only rifle cal of the three.

My gun is a 16" (pistol length ars arnt legal here) and delivers 1900fps with 300grn bullets and 1650 with 405s. Im not sure how much velocity would drop in 4 inces less barrel, not a whole lot id think.

I think the advantages the big bore ars have over an SBS is usable magazine capacity (box mag Shottys not included) , and better bullet selection. While i cant attest to it personally, having never shot a short barreled, or rifled shotty, id bet velocity and accuracy are better from the BB Ars with similar weight projectiles.

Personally something specific to home defense id opt for a pump sbs, but for general use i think the advantage goes to the BB ars.

 

[jmorris]

The 450 uses .452 pistol bullets, will be the cheapest and most available but a "heavy" .452 bullet is 250 grains, most common is 230gn.

The 458 uses .458 rifle bullets common ones start around 250 grains and go to 500 grains. Midway has 5 pages of different bullet choices.
https://www.midwayusa.com/45-caliber/br?cid=7290

The 50 uses .501 pistol bullets common in the 300-500gn range and midway has 2 pages of choices.
https://www.midwayusa.com/50-caliber-500-501/br?cid=7987

 

[adcoch1]

One of the common 50 Beowulf projectiles from hornady is EXACTLY the same bullet used in the hornady shotgun slug, with advertised velocity within 100 fps of the Beo. Makes it interesting to compare, but I'd bet that the SBR is more accurate at long range. But is there enough difference to matter?
As a side note, as already mentioned, the 450 bushmaster can be loaded up with bullets for the 45acp, which i have already, but the socom has the heavyweight bullets more in line with the 50 Beowulf. Just can't decide if the marginal bullet diam difference really matters that much...

 

[adcoch1]

Honestly i think all three of the standard ar big bores are pretty similar.

The .450 has a better selection of lighter bullets, and the .50 has an extra .5 cal of initial dia. So you really have to weigh the advantages of each and your expected uses.

My guns primarily a hunting rifle, which ive shot stuff as large as feral cows with. So the .458 was a better choice for me as its particular advantages are head spacing on the shoulder. And wider range of mid to heavy weight bullets, being the only rifle cal of the three.

My gun is a 16" (pistol length ars arnt legal here) and delivers 1900fps with 300grn bullets and 1650 with 405s. Im not sure how much velocity would drop in 4 inces less barrel, not a whole lot id think.

I think the advantages the big bore ars have over an SBS is usable magazine capacity (box mag Shottys not included) , and better bullet selection. While i cant attest to it personally, having never shot a short barreled, or rifled shotty, id bet velocity and accuracy are better from the BB Ars with similar weight projectiles.

Personally something specific to home defense id opt for a pump sbs, but for general use i think the advantage goes to the BB ars.

Thanks for the info Loonwulf, i forgot that you had the socom, seems i remember hearing about it in the hunting thrrad maybe? I do like that the socom shoulder headspaces, and bullet selection is phenomenal. I really like the Beowulf too, bigger is better and all, but the socom may be the answer. I wish these were all saami spec'ed cartridges, it'd be easier

 

[redbullitt]

12 inch barrel here. 458 socom.

Definitely my choice. All three you listed do well without much barrel. I like the socom because it is easy to get brass from starline. Plenty of velocity, in fact not much difference with a longer barrel. Lots of good projectile choices too. Barnes makes an awesome socom specific bullet that is worth a look if you go that direction.

 

[adcoch1]

12 inch barrel here. 458 socom.

Definitely my choice. All three you listed do well without much barrel. I like the socom because it is easy to get brass from starline. Plenty of velocity, in fact not much difference with a longer barrel. Lots of good projectile choices too. Barnes makes an awesome socom specific bullet that is worth a look if you go that direction.

What barrel or upper did you go with?

 

[CraigC]

Any of the three will be head and shoulders above anything you can sling out of a shotgun. For most north american game, the .450 is plenty. It has the ability to utilize any of the pistol bullets designed for the .45ACP, .45Colt, .454Casull and .460S&W and that is a broad range. The .458 has heavier bullets available but they are ALL rifle bullets and the utility of a 500gr bullet is very limited. Same for the .50, which would be my second choice.

The 450 uses .452 pistol bullets, will be the cheapest and most available but a "heavy" .452 bullet is 250 grains, most common is 230gn.

The 458 uses .458 rifle bullets common ones start around 250 grains and go to 500 grains. Midway has 5 pages of different bullet choices.
https://www.midwayusa.com/45-caliber/br?cid=7290

The 50 uses .501 pistol bullets common in the 300-500gn range and midway has 2 pages of choices.
https://www.midwayusa.com/50-caliber-500-501/br?cid=7987

No, a "heavy" .452" bullet would be 300-400gr.

 

[LoonWulf]

Perhaps not really worthy of real consideration, but something that might be of interest is the .450 is the only one you can make brass for from another case.

Also again perhaps not horribly important, is that the .450 drives lite bullets significantly faster than standard "acp" class bullets are ment to go.
Depending on application thats not necessarily a bad thing. I switched to 230xtps in my muzzle loader for goats, the 240 Xtpmags punched caliber size holes thru them, the 230s react violently when driven at 1900-2000fps. On a goat i only need 6"-12" of penetration thru light resistance tho.

The Beos a neat round, and lets be honest who dosent like a nice round number like "50"... common say it with meh....ffffiiiiiffffftttteeehhhh!
but really unless your shooting nonexpanding bullets i dont think the .5 cal difference huge advantage.

 

[Varminterror]

Just can't decide if the marginal bullet diam difference really matters that much..

Unless you plan on shooting cast in both, the bullet construction between the diameters matters more than the diameters.

 

[jmorris]

No, a "heavy" .452" bullet would be 300-400gr

Yeah, I used the quotes as a generalization. You can buy 600 grain .458 bullets and 400 grain .452 bullets but "normal" weights for .452 bullets from 185-230gn will out number the choices for 300-400 grain .452's by 30:1 or more.

Of course you could have a custom mold made for any diameter and bullet shape/weight you wanted and they would all be pretty much equal.

 

[adcoch1]

I may end up casting for this too, but at least to start I'll be using off the shelf bullets. Realistically, the reason I want a big thumper is so bullet expansion doesn't matter so much. CraigC brought up a good point about the velocity that the 458 bullets are designed to expand at, and that is the main reason why the 458 isn't the guaranteed winner in this contest.

 

[Jason_W]

At what distances will most shots be taken with the rifle?

In terms of muzzle energy, there are 12 gauge slug loads that beat all three of the listed AR rounds by quite a bit of a margin. There are also some brands such as brenneke slugs that are really good penetrators.

Per round cost for factory ammo is mostly a wash. A quick glance at Midway's prices have .458 SOCOM as the most expensive at $3.00+ a round, .450 and .50 beo in the $1.50/round range, and 12 gauge slugs ranging anywhere from .70/round for bottom of the barrel foster slug loads to upwards of $4/round for premium sabot loads. You probably won't find any of the mentioned AR rounds at local stores in a pinch, but you will shotgun slugs. Handloading will more or less be a necessity if you want to go with the AR rounds. I'll also mention that if you have a place to cast your own projectiles, decent slugs can be handloaded for dirt cheap.

Common distance from shooter to target would be my biggest consideration. Shotguns and slugs get an unfairly bad rep IMO, but a rifle will always win in terms of distance and accuracy. I've had some smooth bore shotguns that would consistently put 5 round groups into a group I could cover with my hand at 100 yards, but anything past that with a shotgun becomes tricky.

If it were me, I would go with the shotgun if I knew my targets would always be inside of 100 yards, but that's mostly because I grew up with an 870 attached my arms. For all practical purposes, it's a wash performance wise inside 100 yards. It's the difference between being run over by a Dodge Charger, an F150, a dumptruck, or a big rig. Technically they're different, but the end result is the same. Past 100 yards and the rifle rounds have the advantage.

 

[CraigC]

Yeah, I used the quotes as a generalization. You can buy 600 grain .458 bullets and 400 grain .452 bullets but "normal" weights for .452 bullets from 185-230gn will out number the choices for 300-400 grain .452's by 30:1 or more.

Of course you could have a custom mold made for any diameter and bullet shape/weight you wanted and they would all be pretty much equal.

It's a matter of perspective. You're talking about standard .45ACP bullets but the selection is FAR more varied than that. There's no reason under the sun to limit yourself but lots of reasons not to. No shortage of other options either. For the .45Colt, .454 and .460, 250-260gr is "standard" weight and those bullets are far more suited to the .450 than ACP bullets.

In terms of muzzle energy, there are 12 gauge slug loads that beat all three of the listed AR rounds by quite a bit of a margin. There are also some brands such as brenneke slugs that are really good penetrators.

Energy is a poor gauge. Slugs are terrible in the air and in flesh. Very low sectional density and even the vaunted Brenneke penetrates about like a standard weight handgun bullet. It makes a big hole but not very deep. Any good 325-360gr .452" bullet, or 425-440gr .501" bullet is going to double up on the slug in terms of penetration.

It's the difference between being run over by a Dodge Charger, an F150, a dumptruck, or a big rig. Technically they're different, but the end result is the same.

Yeah but there's a difference between getting killed and getting ground into hamburger meat.

 

[Jason_W]

Energy is a poor gauge. Slugs are terrible in the air and in flesh. Very low sectional density and even the vaunted Brenneke penetrates about like a standard weight handgun bullet. It makes a big hole but not very deep. Any good 325-360gr .452" bullet, or 425-440gr .501" bullet is going to double up on the slug in terms of penetration.

Maybe it's not as much penetration, but I'd hardly call it terrible.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ll410-brenneky-black-magic-short-magnum-slug/

There's nothing in the lower 48 that is going to shrug off one of those to the vitals. Yeah, a hardcast .458 will likely penetrate further, but if we're talking about thin skinned medium/large game inside 100 yards, dead is dead. Past 100, the better BC of a rifle bullet gives it an orders of magnitude edge over the slug.

There are other considerations, as well. Platform familiarity for one. Also, my scattergun groups slugs better than your rifle patterns shot . There's something to be said for a multi-tool.

 

[CraigC]

Maybe it's not as much penetration, but I'd hardly call it terrible.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ll410-brenneky-black-magic-short-magnum-slug/

There's nothing in the lower 48 that is going to shrug off one of those to the vitals. Yeah, a hardcast .458 will likely penetrate further, but if we're talking about thin skinned medium/large game inside 100 yards, dead is dead. Past 100, the better BC of a rifle bullet gives it an orders of magnitude edge over the slug.

It's pretty bad, nowhere near as effective as peole think. I've tested it in ballistic media too and the results were about what I'd expect. Now how do we translate this to the real world? Well, the load I shot that 1800lb longhorn in my avatar with penetrated 30% better than the Brenneke, yet did not exit on the big bull. So yeah, the slug might be "enough" but sometimes it ain't. For most people, their point of reference for slugs is their use on deer, which doesn't take much penetration at all. Here's a pretty enlightening look at them.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ootingthebull410-12-gauge-slug-vs-454-casull/

Also, my scattergun groups slugs better than your rifle patterns shot . There's something to be said for a multi-tool.

That's definitely true and shotguns have a lot going for them. I just don't believe that slugs are the Hammer of Thor that many people believe they are. The myth just doesn't withstand much scrutiny.

But that's a discussion for another time and thread.

 

[Jason_W]

It's pretty bad, nowhere near as effective as peole think. I've tested it in ballistic media too and the results were about what I'd expect. Now how do we translate this to the real world? Well, the load I shot that 1800lb longhorn in my avatar with penetrated 30% better than the Brenneke, yet did not exit on the big bull. So yeah, the slug might be "enough" but sometimes it ain't. For most people, their point of reference for slugs is their use on deer, which doesn't take much penetration at all. Here's a pretty enlightening look at them.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ootingthebull410-12-gauge-slug-vs-454-casull/



That's definitely true and shotguns have a lot going for them. I just don't believe that slugs are the Hammer of Thor that many people believe they are. The myth just doesn't withstand much scrutiny.

But that's a discussion for another time and thread.

True, but deer are without a doubt the most commonly hunter medium game animal in the country. A chance to hunt an 1800+ plus animal is pretty rare. I think the way to compare slug penetration to big bore hardcast rifle penetration is not bad vs. great, but good vs. better.

It's like comparing 16mp resolution to 20mp resolution. Yes, 20mp is superior, but 99% of the time it doesn't matter.

Me, I'll happily trade 45" of penetration for 20" plus a gun I can also send hot loads through.

 

[CraigC]

True but the whole slug debate (debacle) usually centers around brown bears. Any of the loads in question will kill deer deader than fried chicken.

 

[Jason_W]

True but the whole slug debate (debacle) usually centers around brown bears. Any of the loads in question will kill deer deader than fried chicken.

I wonder why that's still a debate for all but a small handful of people living the Alaskan bush. I rate my chances of ever having to face down an angry brown bear to be similar to having to face down an angry elephant that escaped from the zoo. It's like pondering how to protect my meat computer from meteorites.

 

[CraigC]

Because everybody who ever goes anywhere near where brown bears live, for any reason or pursuit, is scared to death of getting eaten by one.

 

[jmorris]

CraigC brought up a good point about the velocity that the 458 bullets are designed to expand at, and that is the main reason why the 458 isn't the guaranteed winner in this contest.

My 405 grain loads for 458 socom are a little over 300 FPS faster than Remington's 45-70 load for the same bullet.

 

[jmorris]

It's a matter of perspective. You're talking about standard .45ACP bullets but the selection is FAR more varied than that.

My perspective was bullets offered in .452 diameter. There are many places that offer them, it's one of the most popular diameters, granted most are in fact for the 45 ACP. I guess it might be a different perspective if I didn't look at production numbers and looked at say what Beartooth alone makes. Look at my first post, "cheapest, most available are normally" going to be <250gn.

What weights do you think are most common in that diameter?

 

[LoonWulf]

My experience with cast bullets in the .458 wasnt awsome, the accuracy was ok, but the barrel leaded up like mad. Ive got very little experience with all lead bullets tho, and mine were off the shelf mbc so not sized specifically for my rifle. The neat thing is my gas system only ended up with a little bit of lead in it.

Like JM said, the .458 generates velocities above "standard" 45-70 loads, this gives them plenty of expandables to chose from...i happen to like the 300grn Nosler MZ balistic tips for my "lite" bullet, and which every 405s i can get my hands on for heavier stuff.

ya know when i was considering the .450, really the only bullets i looked at were the 250sst/FXT, the 240 and 300grn XTPMags, seemed like those would cover MOST of what id want to do.

 

[adcoch1]

Lotta good info in here, and thanks for the comparitive arguments for and against slugs. I will use this rifle for deer occasionally, but the main reason for owning and using it will be in case the big black bears or the grizzly I've seen in Montana try to mess with my family. A 458win mag would be a better choice, but i want something smaller and more likely to be with me when i head into the back country. And i like a big hole in the end of a barrel. It looks cool, and it lets the 2 legged troublemakers know you mean business too. As if my 44 mag blackhawk would be misinterpreted... But hey, we can have cool guns so might as well.