50 round boxes of hollow points vs defense ammo.
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Depends on where you shoot the BG!
Look, ALL handgun bullets are underperformers when it comes to incapacitating an attacker, that's why you need to keep shooting until the assault has stopped. That is your only requisite in a SD bullet, that it will penetrate deep enough to cause CNS injury. -It is more important to hit your target where you need to (COM) or head shot in the "T-zone" than the kind of bullet (as long as you are using good quality modern bullets).
Some defense ammos are formulated so that they will consistently penetrate a minimum depth in ballistic gel as well as reliably expand. You increase your odds of creating a larger wound channel with them, but this only means that they might bleed-out faster. HOWEVER, the only way to reliably stop a determined life-threatening assault is to hit the BGs in their Central Nervous System so that it causes incapacitation. If you're going to do that, a good FMJ will do just as well.
Do I use good JHPs for my SD/HD loads, sure, why not... but I wouldn't sweat if I only had FMJs available to me. Treat firearms as a martial art: you only get out what you put into it. No high-dollar gun + high dollar bullets will do a thing if you cant hit your target.
Look, ALL handgun bullets are underperformers when it comes to incapacitating an attacker, that's why you need to keep shooting until the assault has stopped. That is your only requisite in a SD bullet, that it will penetrate deep enough to cause CNS injury. -It is more important to hit your target where you need to (COM) or head shot in the "T-zone" than the kind of bullet (as long as you are using good quality modern bullets).
Some defense ammos are formulated so that they will consistently penetrate a minimum depth in ballistic gel as well as reliably expand. You increase your odds of creating a larger wound channel with them, but this only means that they might bleed-out faster. HOWEVER, the only way to reliably stop a determined life-threatening assault is to hit the BGs in their Central Nervous System so that it causes incapacitation. If you're going to do that, a good FMJ will do just as well.
Do I use good JHPs for my SD/HD loads, sure, why not... but I wouldn't sweat if I only had FMJs available to me. Treat firearms as a martial art: you only get out what you put into it. No high-dollar gun + high dollar bullets will do a thing if you cant hit your target.
I think he means the budget HP vs high end HP, not FMJ.
It is a close call in my opinion. The difference in performance is small as long as you match bullet weights to calibers carefully. Some light/fast bullets will over expand and not give good penetration with budget ammo. The better stuff is more reliable at this. But I see more problems when lighter than normal bullets are used. For example a cheap 185 gr 45 might be not work well, where a premium 185 gr bullet might. If you stick with the conventional 230 gr weight with budget ammo I think the difference is pretty small.
Same with any other caliber, just used 45 as an example.
But on the other hand, most folks don't shoot thousands of rounds of the expensive premium ammo. If the small improvement in performance gives you peace of mind, then it is money well spent.
It is a close call in my opinion. The difference in performance is small as long as you match bullet weights to calibers carefully. Some light/fast bullets will over expand and not give good penetration with budget ammo. The better stuff is more reliable at this. But I see more problems when lighter than normal bullets are used. For example a cheap 185 gr 45 might be not work well, where a premium 185 gr bullet might. If you stick with the conventional 230 gr weight with budget ammo I think the difference is pretty small.
Same with any other caliber, just used 45 as an example.
But on the other hand, most folks don't shoot thousands of rounds of the expensive premium ammo. If the small improvement in performance gives you peace of mind, then it is money well spent.
I still don't think it is as important as practice + placement is.
Do the 50/box JHPs work? I'm sure they do, in fact, I use them in my pistols because of the volume that I shoot. Placement, placement, placement. The SWAT Entry Team folks that I train with (as a civilian) only use FMJ, but they go in the door and get the job done. That's courage + training, the bullets are not even that important in the equation.
Plenty of documented cases of civilian and police failure to stops when using premium JHPs. Did I mention placement?
Do the 50/box JHPs work? I'm sure they do, in fact, I use them in my pistols because of the volume that I shoot. Placement, placement, placement. The SWAT Entry Team folks that I train with (as a civilian) only use FMJ, but they go in the door and get the job done. That's courage + training, the bullets are not even that important in the equation.
Plenty of documented cases of civilian and police failure to stops when using premium JHPs. Did I mention placement?
Hardtarget
Member
Several years ago my brother in law gave me 100 rnds of .45 acp. Looked good. Nice big hollow point 230 gr bullet. He told me to just shoot 'em...range only! He wasn't kidding! Those were the only ammo I've ever had that would not function my pistol. just not enough power to cycle the action.
I used them to help train with. Fail to eject drill type self test. I would get my son to load on in a mag to get a bit of realism in the range time. even though I knew it was there, I think it helped. Of course, I only shot cardboard with it.
My gun functions with everything...now that those are gone. I just say buy good ammo. Shoot some of what you carry...to know it works. Hope you never need it!
Mark
I used them to help train with. Fail to eject drill type self test. I would get my son to load on in a mag to get a bit of realism in the range time. even though I knew it was there, I think it helped. Of course, I only shot cardboard with it.
My gun functions with everything...now that those are gone. I just say buy good ammo. Shoot some of what you carry...to know it works. Hope you never need it!
Mark
Jim Watson
Member
I use the old style Federal 9BP JHP usually available in 50 count "law enforcement" boxes.
I have shot it into water and other media and while it expands, it is not as large and sharp as the newer tech. I stick with it because I am confident that it will feed, fire, and function in my guns. If I were to change ammo, I would have to spend a lot of time and money to qualify the Bullet Of The Month.
I have shot it into water and other media and while it expands, it is not as large and sharp as the newer tech. I stick with it because I am confident that it will feed, fire, and function in my guns. If I were to change ammo, I would have to spend a lot of time and money to qualify the Bullet Of The Month.
RustyShackelford
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"high tech" defense rounds vs target/basic JHP....
There's a lot on this topic I disagree with.
First, bullet performance does matter. US police agencies spend $$$ T&Eing firearms/ammunition for a good reason.
They need to train officers/troopers/agents & use rounds that work effectively.
The major US firms like Hornady, Winchester & Speer/CCI make these loads to offer top performance.
Can a budget grade FMJ or JHP defend you? Sure.
But Id go with a round that's been developed for its specific purpose. The Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Duty/TAP & Winchester Ranger T/T Series among others offer a lot.
As for the "courage is more important than bullets" remark, Im not sure what that means.
I would agree that bullet placement is critical but power/performance is important too.
There's a lot on this topic I disagree with.
First, bullet performance does matter. US police agencies spend $$$ T&Eing firearms/ammunition for a good reason.
They need to train officers/troopers/agents & use rounds that work effectively.
The major US firms like Hornady, Winchester & Speer/CCI make these loads to offer top performance.
Can a budget grade FMJ or JHP defend you? Sure.
But Id go with a round that's been developed for its specific purpose. The Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Duty/TAP & Winchester Ranger T/T Series among others offer a lot.
As for the "courage is more important than bullets" remark, Im not sure what that means.
I would agree that bullet placement is critical but power/performance is important too.
JohnBiltz
Member
On the worst day of my life I'd like to have the best ammo I can. Its not as though you go through the stuff in quantity. I'm fairly good on making a dollar last but I'm not going to be penny smart and pound stupid on something that I'm only going to use to save my life.
Lucky Derby
Member
"Shot placement is king. Penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin." Read that over on the S&W forum.
The budget JHPs do offer a way to practice with your carry load, at a reasonable cost. That MAY be more important than the difference between Ranger T & WWB.
One advantage of the premium stuff that is often forgotten is the powder. Often they have flash suppressed powder, not present in the budget JHPs that may help in your ablity to fire fast follow up shots in a low light environment. Probably not a big deal with a Beretta M9 9mm. Could be a huge difference with a 2.25" Ruger SP101 .357 Magnum snubby.
The budget JHPs do offer a way to practice with your carry load, at a reasonable cost. That MAY be more important than the difference between Ranger T & WWB.
One advantage of the premium stuff that is often forgotten is the powder. Often they have flash suppressed powder, not present in the budget JHPs that may help in your ablity to fire fast follow up shots in a low light environment. Probably not a big deal with a Beretta M9 9mm. Could be a huge difference with a 2.25" Ruger SP101 .357 Magnum snubby.
RustyShackelford
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Lowest bidder...
Many PDs do go by the lowest bidder. But the contract or procurement bid is based on the criteria set up by the agency/dept to meet certain standards.
Few agencies say; "hey so what" or "we don't care". I doubt a jury or citizen review board would be impressed with the explanation of "we try and find the cheapest ammunition we can, we don't test it or have any standards".
As noted, LE grade rounds need to punch thru auto glass, car doors, clothing, plywood, fiber. The FBI calls it the "protocol" tests.
Many PDs do go by the lowest bidder. But the contract or procurement bid is based on the criteria set up by the agency/dept to meet certain standards.
Few agencies say; "hey so what" or "we don't care". I doubt a jury or citizen review board would be impressed with the explanation of "we try and find the cheapest ammunition we can, we don't test it or have any standards".
As noted, LE grade rounds need to punch thru auto glass, car doors, clothing, plywood, fiber. The FBI calls it the "protocol" tests.
Zaydok Allen
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I agree that practice and placement are more important but that isn't the question or topic of the thread.
Very true and important. If my life depends on it, I want ammo that has had a little higher QC than cheaper stuff. I want powder that is going to help limit some of the disorientation that will occur if shooting inside, without hearing protection, and in low light, and I want ammo loaded warm enough that it will definitely cycle the slide fully. Premium ammo has a higher chance of doing that. I try to shoot a bit of my carry ammo on every practice session just to keep myself up to snuff on what in carrying.
GBExpat
Member
Quite frankly, I don't think that there is that much difference. I would feel no more comfortable if my carry piece were loaded with high-dollar ammo instead of good-quality, reliable, affordable ammo.bscott29 said:
Actually, during the coldest winter periods (heavy clothing period) I will often just carry FMJs if I am carrying one of my .45s.
That said, I reload my carry ammo, both practice & carry flavors. That way I can load a lot of practice rounds with same-weight plated that match the feel/recoil of the SD ones (matching-throw) that I top with GoldDots or HSTs (both PULLS from RMR) ... and I can do it all without a mortgage on my house.
UH OH! No I've gone and done it ... the Internet Court Experts will descend upon your thread to tell us that you shouldn't use reloads for SD because lawyers will use that to make juries order your immediate castration and blah, blah, blah ...Tomac
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I'm w/CWL on this. Barring a hit to the CNS, shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout is the only way to stop a determined and aggressive BG (even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair). Now, if we could compare the bleedout times to incapacitation between different bullet types, would we see enough of a difference (assuming identical hits on the same BG) *to alter the outcome of the encounter*? If not, then it doesn't make any difference whether the BG passes out in the ambulance or in the ER.
With all that being said, shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else (including the amount of bullet expansion) is secondary.
Yes, I carry a quality JHP, but I *expect* all handgun rds to underperform and so don't pin my hopes of survival on how much expansion I might get from a given bullet.
OP, check out SGAmmo for good prices on 50rd boxes of quality SD ammo (here's their 9mm page): http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/9mm-9x19
Tomac
With all that being said, shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else (including the amount of bullet expansion) is secondary.
Yes, I carry a quality JHP, but I *expect* all handgun rds to underperform and so don't pin my hopes of survival on how much expansion I might get from a given bullet.
OP, check out SGAmmo for good prices on 50rd boxes of quality SD ammo (here's their 9mm page): http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/9mm-9x19
Tomac
NOMI WASP
member
Do you want a bullet that fragments and may not stop a threat or do you want a proven bullet that expands and penetrates vital organs? The extra money is well spent IMO because if your lifes on the line, you want the best ammo money can buy (excluding the exotic crap IE Mall ninja)
huntsman
Member
Jacket or bonded? is the latter worth the cost? or is it just hype? I'll look for high quality jacketed before I pony up for bonded but I have little faith in the promo (WWB,UMC) for anything but practice.
NOMI WASP
member
I'm not really on the "bonded" train but I won't turn down a good bonded bullet. If you buy the 50 round LE boxes of HST,Ranger,Gold Dots,Critical duty, they are the same price as WWB or UMC. The internet is the place for cheap hollow points but buying in bulk is where you keep the shipping in check. I have HST's 124,147 in my carry arms, but I also stock Ranger T's when in stock. Heck, if I couldn't find either of those I would still carry Golden Sabers or Underwood.
My issue with cheap hollow points is I can usually only find 115 grain and I like a heavier bullet, preferably 147 grain. I enjoy watching Youtube videos from Tnoutdoors 9 and shooting the bull. They provide good info.
My issue with cheap hollow points is I can usually only find 115 grain and I like a heavier bullet, preferably 147 grain. I enjoy watching Youtube videos from Tnoutdoors 9 and shooting the bull. They provide good info.
Madcap_Magician
Member
Well, I buy the law enforcement ammunition in 50-round boxes, so I guess I get to eat my cake and have it, too.
Ammunition sensitivity, I think, grows as you get closer to marginal calibers. For a .40 S&W or .45 ACP, the odds that WWB JHPs will perform effectively are better than the odds that a .380 ACP WWB JHP will do so.
Essentially the bigger and more powerful the caliber, the less necessary a premium bullet design is to get adequate performance.
That being said, using premium bullets in all calibers should demonstrate noticeable improvement in performance compared to budget JHP ammunition. So for 9mm, I believe using premium ammunition pushes you from the marginal or adequate category into the good category, while for .45 ACP using premium ammunition would bump you from the good into the excellent.
That being said, no two shootings are the same, and there is no way to guarantee that any caliber or bullet design will work in the unknown next shooting incident.
Ammunition sensitivity, I think, grows as you get closer to marginal calibers. For a .40 S&W or .45 ACP, the odds that WWB JHPs will perform effectively are better than the odds that a .380 ACP WWB JHP will do so.
Essentially the bigger and more powerful the caliber, the less necessary a premium bullet design is to get adequate performance.
That being said, using premium bullets in all calibers should demonstrate noticeable improvement in performance compared to budget JHP ammunition. So for 9mm, I believe using premium ammunition pushes you from the marginal or adequate category into the good category, while for .45 ACP using premium ammunition would bump you from the good into the excellent.
That being said, no two shootings are the same, and there is no way to guarantee that any caliber or bullet design will work in the unknown next shooting incident.
herrwalther
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I carry "budget" JHP rounds in my defensive firearms when finances don't allow me to get higher quality HST, Golden Sabre or whatever else I like shooting that week. I don't feel undergunned when I carry budget JHP compared to the latest "super expanding fad of the week" selection as I have tested how the budget rounds perform in my particular firearm for reliability, penetration, and expansion. An added benefit is you typically get more budget rounds in a box to practice with. The only downside is a maybe depending on situation. Budget JHP rounds are usually only in one grain weight per caliber. For example I prefer shooting 165gr in my .40 handguns but WWB JHP is only offered in 180gr.
Thanks a lot tomac. Those are the best prices I've found on good 50ct boxes of good hollow points. They even have critical duty 9mm in 50ct. My main complaint with this defense ammo is that it's usually $20 for 20 rounds. In my mind I like to shoot at minimum 10 rounds slow fire to test accuracy and 10 rounds in each magazine as fast as I can pull the trigger to test function in my gun. Then I need a couple magazines full to carry. That adds up quick.
RustyShackelford
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Pain in the wallet....
I choose to carry/use LE grade rounds so I get the top performers & can say in a second stage investigation or court case; "I bought brand ___ because it's well made & in use by many sworn LE officers.".
Trust me, the pain is in the wallet too, .
I recently got a new 50rd box of Winchester Ranger T/T Series 230gr JHP +P .45acp from AmmunitionDepot.com . With the ground FedEx & taxes it was about $1.00 per round.
The metro PD in my city also uses Winchester Ranger T/T Series(9x19mm 127gr +P+ JHP).
My new Ranger T/T series .45acp ammunition will be used/carried for a long time, trust me.
Rusty
I choose to carry/use LE grade rounds so I get the top performers & can say in a second stage investigation or court case; "I bought brand ___ because it's well made & in use by many sworn LE officers.".
Trust me, the pain is in the wallet too,
.I recently got a new 50rd box of Winchester Ranger T/T Series 230gr JHP +P .45acp from AmmunitionDepot.com . With the ground FedEx & taxes it was about $1.00 per round.
The metro PD in my city also uses Winchester Ranger T/T Series(9x19mm 127gr +P+ JHP).
My new Ranger T/T series .45acp ammunition will be used/carried for a long time, trust me.
Rusty
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Col. Plink
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How about alternating the rounds by bullet type in the magazine and train with double-taps?
Onward Allusion
Member
Practice, practice, practice.
Personally, I wouldn't feel undergunned with uber expensive HP's or inexpensive HP's or even FMJ. Shot placement...
Personally, I wouldn't feel undergunned with uber expensive HP's or inexpensive HP's or even FMJ. Shot placement...
MIL-DOT
member
A while back I probably would've said the differences would likely be minimal. But, a couple years ago I was making an ammo order from Sportsmansguide, for some economical S&B hollow point 9mm's, and called a shootin' buddy to see if he wanted me to toss a couple boxes for him in on my order, and I did.
Well, this buddy had 3 different ranges on his property, and had a particular enthusiasm for testing the ballistics of various rounds, by shooting through multiple milk jugs filled with water, and hunting down the round ( it was always fun, and sometimes very illustrative)
Anyway, what we found out about these Sellier & Belot hollow points was that they hardly expanded AT ALL (in that medium). he showed me some other brands that had expanded beautifully. I forget what they were, (probably just Remmy or Winny HP's) but they were also just basic, lower-end stuff, no Gold Dots, Hornadys, Golden Sabres, or anything like that, yet they expanded very nicely, especially in contrast to the nearly non-existent expansion of those S&B's.
So, yeah, there very well may be a difference.
Well, this buddy had 3 different ranges on his property, and had a particular enthusiasm for testing the ballistics of various rounds, by shooting through multiple milk jugs filled with water, and hunting down the round ( it was always fun, and sometimes very illustrative)
Anyway, what we found out about these Sellier & Belot hollow points was that they hardly expanded AT ALL (in that medium). he showed me some other brands that had expanded beautifully. I forget what they were, (probably just Remmy or Winny HP's) but they were also just basic, lower-end stuff, no Gold Dots, Hornadys, Golden Sabres, or anything like that, yet they expanded very nicely, especially in contrast to the nearly non-existent expansion of those S&B's.
So, yeah, there very well may be a difference.
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