6.5 Creedmore vs 6.5 Swede
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someguy2800
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The 6.5x55 has about 5 grains more case capacity, so it will outperform a 6.5 creedmoor on velocity if both were loaded to the same pressure. Where the 6.5 creedmoor shines is the availability of factory rifles, brass, ammo, and ability to fit in a short action. If those four things are important its a winner.
rayatphonix
Member
Someguy stated it perfectly.
LRDGCO
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Short action vs standard action, for whatever that matters.
In a modern receiver, the Swede loaded to higher pressure will "go to eleven". (CIP standard for 6.5x55SE is 55,000 psi vs SAAMI of 51,000)
The longer action, longer throat Swede will comfortably take the longest of the most recent uber VLD 6.5 bullets.
There's a LOT of good 6.5CM brass available.
In a modern receiver, the Swede loaded to higher pressure will "go to eleven". (CIP standard for 6.5x55SE is 55,000 psi vs SAAMI of 51,000)
The longer action, longer throat Swede will comfortably take the longest of the most recent uber VLD 6.5 bullets.
There's a LOT of good 6.5CM brass available.
Last edited:
Random 8
Member
The 6.5 Swede, or 6,5SKAN or 6,5SE as high intensity loads are known in Europe is definitely a fine round. You will gain a little velocity with 6,5SE data from Viht, but you'll be stuck using expensive and sometimes hard to find Vihtavouri powders or going off-book with 'Murican powders. The 6.5CM is ballistically very similar to the 6,5 Swedish as loaded to M96 pressures, which has been ventilating game up to Scandinavian moose quite effectively for over 100 years.
As above, you have some logistical advantages in the CM round. Either one is a fine cartridge for all but the largest game, and assuming you handload and already own a Ruger M77, Sako, Tikka, Rem 700, Husqvarna M98, CZ or other strong modern action version of this round, those advantages fade quickly. You'll find Norma/Nosler (same same) and Lapua brass to be match grade in either caliber. PRVI brass in the 6.5x55 is also of high quality and suitable for 6,5SE loads.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/?cartridge=70
As above, you have some logistical advantages in the CM round. Either one is a fine cartridge for all but the largest game, and assuming you handload and already own a Ruger M77, Sako, Tikka, Rem 700, Husqvarna M98, CZ or other strong modern action version of this round, those advantages fade quickly. You'll find Norma/Nosler (same same) and Lapua brass to be match grade in either caliber. PRVI brass in the 6.5x55 is also of high quality and suitable for 6,5SE loads.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/?cartridge=70
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Llama Bob
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The 6.5CM wins on basically everything - short instead of long action, more efficient shoulder (makes up for the minor difference in case capacity), higher max pressure, small primer brass available, better brass support in general.
This is a case of technology marching on and the market reflecting that.
This is a case of technology marching on and the market reflecting that.
Riomouse911
Member
If you’re a reloader, and not shooting an unaltered milsurp or a rework, it’s pretty much 6.5 of one and six and a half of the other. If not, the CM has more options.
As was stated; the CM is more popular with new rifles and ammo available just about everywhere... the Swede is more nostalgic, especially around the campfire.
My 6.5 is a modern CZ in 6.5x55. I personally have no need for a CM, as I’m happy with the gun and round as-is.
In all honesty, I seriously doubt any critter that gets shot with either of these great .264” rounds will give a rats patoot which was what as it expires and you tag it
.
Stay safe!
As was stated; the CM is more popular with new rifles and ammo available just about everywhere... the Swede is more nostalgic, especially around the campfire.
My 6.5 is a modern CZ in 6.5x55. I personally have no need for a CM, as I’m happy with the gun and round as-is.
In all honesty, I seriously doubt any critter that gets shot with either of these great .264” rounds will give a rats patoot which was what as it expires and you tag it
. Stay safe!
The 6.5 Swede is a great round and was used in long range competition for awhile. It has been killing game in Europe since before I was around.
As posted, the 6.5 Creedmore is super popular right now and has all kinds of factory offerings in guns and ammo from mild to wild, from $400 rifles to name your price options and lots of hunting and match ammo available.
Both are quite capable, but the Creedmore has more options today, and likely for a long time.
As posted, the 6.5 Creedmore is super popular right now and has all kinds of factory offerings in guns and ammo from mild to wild, from $400 rifles to name your price options and lots of hunting and match ammo available.
Both are quite capable, but the Creedmore has more options today, and likely for a long time.
cheygriz
member
If you want the newest and latest, the CM. If you want a century old tried and true with a slight ballistic advantage, the Swede.
someguy2800
Member
The difference between the two is probably going to be like 75-100 fps at the max
cheygriz
member
But I would load to CIP.
Llama Bob
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And still be 50 ft/s slower comparing either absolute fastest load or fastest temp-insensitive load.
In order for the 6.5x55 to keep up, you'd have to go completely off spec and have pressures in the 60KPSI range. If you want to do that, more power to you (in a strong action) but it's not the round as specified.
If you're putting together a custom rifle and loading ammo above specs the 6.5X55 has the potential to be a little faster and just as accurate. If you're buying off the shelf rifles, ammo or hand loading ammo within book specs the Creedmoor will out perform the 6.5X55. You see exactly the same thing when comparing 260 to 6.5CM.
Unlike most new cartridges shooters went to Hornady and told them what they wanted. They were getting good results with 260, but not with off the shelf guns and ammo. Hornady engineers and rifle makers were asked to develop a factory round and rifle that duplicated what they were doing with out of spec 260 loads and custom rifles. There isn't anything a 6.5CM will do that a 260 or 6.5X55 won't do. It is just that to get the same performance from the others requires a lot more work. It can't be done with off the shelf gear.
Unlike most new cartridges shooters went to Hornady and told them what they wanted. They were getting good results with 260, but not with off the shelf guns and ammo. Hornady engineers and rifle makers were asked to develop a factory round and rifle that duplicated what they were doing with out of spec 260 loads and custom rifles. There isn't anything a 6.5CM will do that a 260 or 6.5X55 won't do. It is just that to get the same performance from the others requires a lot more work. It can't be done with off the shelf gear.
cheygriz
member
The CM is a truly great round, no question. But contrary to popular belief, it isn't magical.
Llama Bob
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Don't be so sure about that - once you throw the pressure specs in the trash, the Creedmoor gives up a bit of case capacity, but has a major advantages in the form of Lapua small primer brass and reduced bolt thrust from less taper. Plus a minor advantage of extra efficiency from a wider, steeper shoulder.
If our only limit is "will it blow up the gun?" I would still go with the CM.
Llama Bob
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No, but it has design features that aren't duplicated in many competing rounds that give it advantages.
horsemen61
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Ttrl
Nature Boy
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Blow the shoulder out to 40 deg, get some custom dies and call it the 6.5 “Swedemoor”
Random 8
Member
See the Lapua/Vihtavouri link I posted above. I found 6.5CM with a 140 A-max at 2660 with H4350. Found 6.5x55SE with the 139 Scenar at 2800+ in a CIP spec load with N560, slightly slower with a few others. This is in an aprox 2" longer barrel than Hodgdon tested (although I seem to recall something about CIP testing barrel length from the bolt face, but not sure on that one), either way... Per the OP's question, "Would a modern action <I read 6.5 SE> with optimized reloads be comparable?" I'd say the answer is a definitive YES to comparable, possibly slightly superior, with the above caveats regarding logistics.
I think the debate on small vs large rifle primer sizes is a topic for another post. I've seen it argued ad-nauseum on the Palma line before internet forums were really "a thing" with no definitive conclusion fired with words or bullets. There were record setting shooters who preferred both types, and no doubt there are record shooters in PRS games who swear by one or the other as well.
I think the debate on small vs large rifle primer sizes is a topic for another post. I've seen it argued ad-nauseum on the Palma line before internet forums were really "a thing" with no definitive conclusion fired with words or bullets. There were record setting shooters who preferred both types, and no doubt there are record shooters in PRS games who swear by one or the other as well.
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denton
Member
The cartridge cannot read the headstamp. All that it "knows" is the strength and geometry of the materials between it and the air.
In a modern action in good condition, there is absolutely no reason that the 6.5x55 cannot be safely run at 30-06 or 270 pressures. I run mine at about 58-59 KPSI which is on the conservative side.
I do respect the 6.5 CM, but at modern pressures, the Swede does get charming muzzle velocities.
In a modern action in good condition, there is absolutely no reason that the 6.5x55 cannot be safely run at 30-06 or 270 pressures. I run mine at about 58-59 KPSI which is on the conservative side.
I do respect the 6.5 CM, but at modern pressures, the Swede does get charming muzzle velocities.
Nature Boy
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The biggest advantage that I see with small primers is longer brass life when loading at competition level pressures
I don't have a 6.5 Creedmore, I am certain it is an excellent round. I do have a couple of 6.5 Swede rifles, I have blown a fair number of rounds down range in the things, so maybe those who have 6.5 Creedmores will post their data for comparison.
If I have factory ammunition I will usually shoot a few over a chronograph just for a reloading reference point.
M1896 Infantry Rifle 29' barrel Carl Gustafs mfgr 1903
143 gr FMJ 1986 Swedish Ball
17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F
Ave Vel = 2610
Std Dev = 14.38
ES = 45.59
High = 2633
Low = 2587
Number shots = 8
M38 Infantry Carbine 24" barrel
28-Oct-94 T ≈ 60 °F
143 gr 1986 Swedish Ball OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average
Ave Vel = 2427
STD=22
ES = 62
Low = 2395
High = 2457
N = 10
Shot an internet bragging sub MOA group with three shots. Too bad three shots proves absolutely nothing in terms of inherent accuracy, but it is the inprint publication Gold Standard.
The fourth shot went out, this is proof that if you want to claim sub MOA accuracy, shoot as few shots as possible.
This load is probably a little too hot for a Swedish service rifle, given the velocity is above what I received with a service load. However, IMR 4831 looks to be a real champ in this cartridge. This is at 300 yards, and I think a sub 5 inch ten shot group at 300 yards is pretty darn good for a sporter rifle.
Greased them up and shot them down range! I do this when fire forming brass for the first time. Prevents sidewall stretch as the case slides to the bolt face. If you want your cases to last till the primer pockets expand, or the case necks crack, lube them all the time. Does not have to be a grease, I shot tens of thousands of rounds coated with Johnson Paste Wax. It dries to a hard finish, and like the wax used on the 276 Pedersen round, it liquefies during combustion, and acts as a lubricant.
This is what Pedersen wrote in his patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566
Patented Nov. 4, 1930 PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS 11,0 Drawing.
This invention relates to a process for coating cartridges and more particularly the affixing of a coating of hard wax to the metal case of a cartridge; and the object of the invention is to provide a method whereby cartridges may be coated with great uniformity with an extremely thin film, and also whereby a relatively large number of cartridges may be coated in a short time and at small cost.
In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.
Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.
I do think greasing bullets reduces jacket fouling. I have one JC Higgins 30-06 with a chrome plated barrel that heavily fouls with dry bullets. Greasing the heck out of my bullets results in little to no jacket fouling.
200 Yards, five shot group
300 yards, group shot for size. I am reluctant to touch the elevation and windage knobs of a typical hunting scope once I get going for group size. Target scopes are more reliable, the expensive ones usually (remember usually) move a click when you put on a click. One hunting scope, the group may move a click, or two, or not at all, and then jump four clicks later. Still, a ten shot group 6.6" at 300 yards is not bad for a Featherweight. These are not target rifles.
I forgot to take the five shot group, but it was 4.5" at 300 yards. I don't know the velocity in this rifle.
The velocity difference between IMR and H 4831 was surprising.
I consider the short action/long action debate a distinction without a difference. It only became noticeable for me when I was shooting prone with a sling, in NRA 200 and 300 yard rapid fire competition. The extra 1/2" of bolt throw just made me move my head more, to clear the bolt. It made absolutely no difference in the speed of bolt manipulation. It made no difference in accuracy with my pre 64 M70 target rifle. The rifle started out as a 30-06 and when I shot that barrel out, I purchased the parts for a short action conversion, and rebarreled it to 308 Win. The receiver was not shortened in the process, just the magazine and I purchased the special collar for the bolt. So, if your primary use of the rifle is sitting or prone shooting with a sling, maybe the difference in bolt throw will be an issue, otherwise, it is just something to talk about. Like the weather. Everyone talks about the weather, but the discussion makes no difference with the weather.
If I have factory ammunition I will usually shoot a few over a chronograph just for a reloading reference point.
M1896 Infantry Rifle 29' barrel Carl Gustafs mfgr 1903
143 gr FMJ 1986 Swedish Ball
17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F
Ave Vel = 2610
Std Dev = 14.38
ES = 45.59
High = 2633
Low = 2587
Number shots = 8
M38 Infantry Carbine 24" barrel
28-Oct-94 T ≈ 60 °F
143 gr 1986 Swedish Ball OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average
Ave Vel = 2427
STD=22
ES = 62
Low = 2395
High = 2457
N = 10
Code:
M700 22" Barrel
143 gr Swedish Ball 1986 headstamp
2 Feb 2008 T = 54 °F
Ave Vel =2470
Std Dev =18
ES =48
High =2491
Low =2443
N =5
140 gr Hornady Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350 R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"
2 Feb 2008 T = 52 °F
Ave Vel = 2512
Std Dev = 27
ES = 72
High = 2547
Low = 2475
N = 5
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990" loaded 2-5-2000
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel =2531
Std Dev =14
ES =33
High =2540
Low =2507
N=5
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2548
Std Dev =11
ES =28
High =2566
Low =2538
N =5
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs H4831 wtd lot 01-06-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2419
Std Dev = 31
ES = 88
High = 2477
Low = 2389
N = 8Shot an internet bragging sub MOA group with three shots. Too bad three shots proves absolutely nothing in terms of inherent accuracy, but it is the inprint publication Gold Standard.
The fourth shot went out, this is proof that if you want to claim sub MOA accuracy, shoot as few shots as possible.
This load is probably a little too hot for a Swedish service rifle, given the velocity is above what I received with a service load. However, IMR 4831 looks to be a real champ in this cartridge. This is at 300 yards, and I think a sub 5 inch ten shot group at 300 yards is pretty darn good for a sporter rifle.
Greased them up and shot them down range! I do this when fire forming brass for the first time. Prevents sidewall stretch as the case slides to the bolt face. If you want your cases to last till the primer pockets expand, or the case necks crack, lube them all the time. Does not have to be a grease, I shot tens of thousands of rounds coated with Johnson Paste Wax. It dries to a hard finish, and like the wax used on the 276 Pedersen round, it liquefies during combustion, and acts as a lubricant.
This is what Pedersen wrote in his patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566
Patented Nov. 4, 1930 PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS 11,0 Drawing.
This invention relates to a process for coating cartridges and more particularly the affixing of a coating of hard wax to the metal case of a cartridge; and the object of the invention is to provide a method whereby cartridges may be coated with great uniformity with an extremely thin film, and also whereby a relatively large number of cartridges may be coated in a short time and at small cost.
In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.
Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.
I do think greasing bullets reduces jacket fouling. I have one JC Higgins 30-06 with a chrome plated barrel that heavily fouls with dry bullets. Greasing the heck out of my bullets results in little to no jacket fouling.
Code:
M70 Featherweight 22" Barrel
143.5 gr FMJBT Swedish 1986 ball. OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2460
Std Dev = 21
ES = 30
High = 2474
Low = 2444
N = 5
Very good group
I consider this load a service ball equivalent. The American Rifleman was recommending 43.0 grs IMR4350 with a 140 grain bullets as a Swede service round equivalent as far back as the 1950's.
140 gr Hornady Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350 R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"
18 Nov 2007 T = 75 °F
Ave Vel = 2428
Std Dev = 29
ES = 95
High = 2480
Low = 2385
N = 24
easy bolt life, nice rounded primers
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990"
loaded 2-2000
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2387
Std Dev = 23
ES = 67
High = 2424
Low = 2357
N = 15
Best group of all reloads
140 gr Hornady Spire Point Flat Base (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990" loaded 2-5-2000
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2413
Std Dev = 17
ES = 50
High = 2441
Low = 2391
N = 6
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 46.5 grs WC852 wtd Norma cases CCI200 OAL 3.15"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2476
Std Dev = 18
ES = 46
High = 2504
Low = 2458
N = 5
sticky extraction
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 46.5 grs WC852 wtd NNY cases Fed 210S OAL 3.050"
loaded 1999
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2464
Std Dev = 18
ES = 50
High = 2492
Low = 2442
N = 5
Terrible group, blown with wild flyers
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2419
Std Dev = 19
ES = 43
High = 2439
Low = 2396
N = 5
140 gr Sierra Matchking greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2438
Std Dev = 12
ES = 30
High = 2448
Low = 2418
N = 5
140 gr Hornady SP (0.264") greased 47.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 282 NNY cases Fed 210S OAL 3.050"
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2633
Std Dev = 24
ES = 81
High = 2680
Low = 2599
N = 10
140 gr Hornady SP (0.264") greased 48.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 282 NNY cases Fed 210S OAL 3.050"
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2688
Std Dev = 16
ES = 44
High = 2705
Low = 2661
N = 10
Overmax load, primer cupping around firing pin, shiny rub marks on case heads
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs H4831 wtd lot 01-06-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2289
Std Dev = 9
ES = 16
High = 2296
Low = 2280
N = 5200 Yards, five shot group
300 yards, group shot for size. I am reluctant to touch the elevation and windage knobs of a typical hunting scope once I get going for group size. Target scopes are more reliable, the expensive ones usually (remember usually) move a click when you put on a click. One hunting scope, the group may move a click, or two, or not at all, and then jump four clicks later. Still, a ten shot group 6.6" at 300 yards is not bad for a Featherweight. These are not target rifles.
I forgot to take the five shot group, but it was 4.5" at 300 yards. I don't know the velocity in this rifle.
The velocity difference between IMR and H 4831 was surprising.
I consider the short action/long action debate a distinction without a difference. It only became noticeable for me when I was shooting prone with a sling, in NRA 200 and 300 yard rapid fire competition. The extra 1/2" of bolt throw just made me move my head more, to clear the bolt. It made absolutely no difference in the speed of bolt manipulation. It made no difference in accuracy with my pre 64 M70 target rifle. The rifle started out as a 30-06 and when I shot that barrel out, I purchased the parts for a short action conversion, and rebarreled it to 308 Win. The receiver was not shortened in the process, just the magazine and I purchased the special collar for the bolt. So, if your primary use of the rifle is sitting or prone shooting with a sling, maybe the difference in bolt throw will be an issue, otherwise, it is just something to talk about. Like the weather. Everyone talks about the weather, but the discussion makes no difference with the weather.
horsemen61
Member
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- Oct 20, 2011
- Messages
- 6,758
Ehhh why chose I have both and I’m thrilled with that decision
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