6.5 Grendel shot itself in the foot?

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atek3

atek3

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So many Internet Gun Nerds(tm) such as myself eagerly anticipated the 6.5 Grendel, and hyped it, and promoted it without abandon. Seen by many to be the perfect 'general purpose' cartridge, with better ballistics than any other "combat" type cartridge out there.

Unfortunately, I think it's doomed. The 6.8 SPC, while it has its own share of pressure 'difficulties' and supply 'issues', IT WORKS. The PRI magazines work great (or so I hear from others)! The first priority, over accuracy, ballistics, and lethality of a combat arm is reliability. The Mags being sold with 6.5 Grendel rifles...Don't work. There is a 9 page thread about, "making them work", over at 65grendel.com , For a round that is already playing catch up in terms of popularity with the 6.8 SPC, at least they could have shipped with working magazines.

Secondly, Betamax vs. VHS. Grendel is Beta, SPC is VHS. Alexander Arms the owner of the 6.5 grendel cartridge maintains exclusive licensing and control over the 6.5 grendel cartridge shape. Want to get a reamer and chamber a barrel for 6.5 grendel? Not so fast buster, that is Alexander Arm's cartridge design. I'm not arguing against intellectual property, I'm arguing against basically falling into the Apple/Sony trap of wanting to maintain tight control over your 'proprietary platform'... Mac's are relegated to Art projects and Betamax is dead. Meanwhile lots of companies are jumping on the 6.8 SPC bandwagon, model 1, LMT, PRI, MSTN, remington, and others.

Forgive me if I'm making all this stuff up... Please someone set the record straight.
 
Just like the 6mm Remington. They come out with a superior round, but then shoot themselves in the foot in the implementation. In the case of the 6mm Remington it was the barrel twist.
 
There is a year old thread out there that predicted just the issues you bring up. It's a pity, the 6.5 G would seem to fill a couple of niches.

David
 
i remember that thread...i was one of the people who said, "nahhh, alexander arms is smarter than that..."
DOH!!

atek3
 
Well, this gun-nerd certainly likes the exterior ballistics and bullet selection of the Grendel over the 6.8 SPC.

Yes, the foot has been shot, but perhaps the wound can heal. Both cartridges (especially the Grendel) are relatively unknown and the Grendel mag issue is being addressed. If the mag issue gets resolved soon and more makers start chambering for it (Alexander Arms can always lessen restrictions) then it could take off in popularity. If these things take too long and 6.8 SPC achieves wide-spread public support/popularity before the Grendel fixes take place (first the 6.8 needs widespread ammo availability!)...then it will be too late.

I don't see the military adopting either cartridge anytime soon though and I can't afford one now anyway! ;)
 
I know that it is quite possibly a dead round, BUT....

I have looked at some brass and noticed that it is DAMN close to a x39 simply necked and blown out Ackley-style to a straight wall design.

I am curious as to trying it out in a Contender...possibly a 14" or even a 16" carbine....I am sure it will perform better than a 6.5 TC/U and be a bit more economical than a 6.5 JDJ (uses 225 Winchester brass).

If dies are available, then that brass forming shouldn't be that hard....only diffrence between the two pieces are the 6.5 grendel has a small rifle primer and the x39 has LRP...except for some of the Remington stuff that was made...also you have the 6.5 PPC that it might be close to, as well...

6.5 PPC produces a bit too much pressure for the contender but not encore...so I am thinking it might be a good thing that it is a handload only situation for this.

Darrell
 
I was shooting 6.8SPC full auto from the PRI 15 round mags (what I brought with me) last weekend, using my upper and a Colt M16 lower. It fed and ran perfectly.

Can anyone say they've done the same with 6.5 Grendel?

-z
 
Rupestris,

I don't know? Thats why I was kicking around the idea on here.

I know that the PPC's are based on the 220 russian...and I am guessing the same on the x39 brass, as well.


Darrell
 
As the model for case design, Alexander chose the 6mm PPC, necked-up to accommodate standard .264" diameter bullets. This case eventually proved to be well suited to his needs.
Click to expand...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_grendel.htm


It was a new cartridge that Bill was working on that used a 6.5mm bullet in what was basically a necked up 6mm PPC case. The PPC cartridge case is a dandy little design whose lineage goes back to the .220 Russian cartridge
Click to expand...
http://www.gunblast.com/AlexanderArms_65Grendel.htm
 
alexander arms shot this cartridge in the head, not the foot. grendel will never pass their 50 beowulf in popularity (and that's not good for them)
 
I initially though the 6.5 Grendel was the more interesting of the two cartridges, but the 6.8 definitely has a big lead now in breaking into the mainstream. There was even an article in this month's American Rifleman about the 6.8, as I recall.
 
Bill Alexander asked me to step in and provide some comments.

1. There were some problems with the original 6.5 Grendel 10 magazines. The issue with followers has been corrected and all new magazines having been shipped over the past couple of months and those being shipped going forward are using a new follower correcting the problem. In fact, the new magazines work like a dream even on full auto. You will see on the 65grendel.com forum that people are providing positive feedback on the new magazines. There are also many people that have had no issue with the original magazines. I have a box of supposed "not working" magazines that I exchanged for people that work fine.

2. As far as other manufacturers getting into the Grendel game. Dakota Arms, CZ, Les Baer and JP Enterprises are all preparing standard 6.5 Grendel offerings. In addition, Medesha Firearms, SG&Y Rifles, Borden Rifles, Brockman Rifles and Accuracy Systems all offer 6.5 Grendel rifles and soon, Accuracy Speaks will join the ranks as Derrick Martin gets up to speed following his return from duty in the middle east. Ooops, a deal is also in the works for Armalite.

PS... Apple Computer is considered one of the best bets in the computer industry since they have no debt and consistent expanding sales... They might not have the market share of Windows, but they are financially solid and even the Wall Street Journal is giving them strong kudos for the latest OS and products. One report on CNBC even touted that Apple has the current best OS on the market and that Microsoft is at least 18 months out from releasing their challange.

3. Bill Alexander has released that Wolf will be releasing multiple factory loaded 6.5 Grendel ammo options using brass cases, not steel. This information release was held back because of a pending article by David Fortier making the announcement. Price for this ammo will be less then $10.00 per box and could get as low as $6.00 per box. In addition, Lapua has requested to produce and distribute factory ammo as well. Of course, Alexander Arms has been shipping brass and loaded ammo for almost a year for the 6.5 Grendel. Brass and Ammo are readily available and on the shelf. I alone have 15,000 pieces of new brass sitting on the shelf and more coming in.

4. The Grendel is already close to matching the 50 Beowulf in orders.
 
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On paper, the 6.5 grendel seems superior to the 6.8 SPC, am I missing something?

Also, are there any plans to load either in the new polymer casings?
http://www.natec-us.com/products.asp

The idea of the grendel loaded in a polymer casing seems like a great match, even to the point where the military should replace 5.56 and 7.62 with it.
 
Dutchman,

Arne Brennan, AKA TX65 KNOWS what he is talking about. He basically made the 6.5 Grendel. He breathes this cartridge. Then he got together with Bill. And I do see the 6.5 Grendel as superior to the 6.8 especially AT LONGER RANGES. In fact it's superior to the .308 at longer ranges. At 300 or less between the 6.5Gr and the 6.8SPC it's negligable enough I don't care.

Arne,

I'll take you at your word, I believe you and will now hold out.
I currently own the Beowulf as I saw it gain popularity over the .458 SOCOM.
For crying out loud Cabelas is selling the Beowulf now.


Personally though, when it comes to the AR platform I pay attention when Zak Smith decides to chime in. He knows those rifles inside out.

You'll see me sitting on the sidelines at the moment and watching for awhile longer... :D
 
For the record, I would love to have a 6.5 Grendel upper to work through its paces. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or money right now for another "caliber" project.

-z
 
Well, I am curious then as to the availability of making a Contender barrel in this caliber...

what are the pressures this cartridge operates at?

are the reamers still proprietary like JDJ's?

And is the brass that will be available going to be all small rifle primer?

I think that, with the proper marketing, it could become a decent performer as a pistol cartridge maybe for benchrest shooting...

Darrell
 
db,

If you have a 6.5mm Contender blank, call SG&Y at 817-430-0597 and speak to Speedy G. You can also get with Jim Brockman at Brockman rifles.

Brass is small rifle primer. Why? Because it is based on the PPC and the small rifle primer, small flash hole combindation is one of the design features that lead that cartridge to dominate accuracy competition for 25+ years. Actually, according to Dr. Palmisano, it is his opinion that the Grendel through some of the dimensional changes has preserved the relationships of the 6PPC that make it a winner in the 6mm caliber.


The factory ammo is loaded to about 49,000 PSI due to the AR15 and its pressure constraints. In a bolt action, the case is capable of much higher.

Risasi,

Thanks for your positive words. I generally try to avoid discussions that become 6.8 this vs 6.5 that since it becomes a "I like this" vs "you like that" match and I really dont have time, but Bill Alexander and I felt it was important to present some information direct from the source of who created it and have invested many years in development.

Arne
 
TX65
where could I send a barrel for a Charles Daly Mini Mauser to get chambered...?

I'm dreaming again. This would be a great Eastern Pa Deer rifle.
Mini mauser
ER shaw barrel
Boyds Bros Walnut stock
Williams peep sight
Williams ramp front and gold bead.
 
FWIW, I am open-minded about the 6.8 v 6.5 debate. The 6.8 ammo is a bit lighter and more compact, and probably better proven in terms of its terminal effectiveness at up to 300m, but the 6.5 has a greater potential to replace the 7.62x51 as well as the 5.56x45.

I would be delighted to see either chosen by the US (and subsequently NATO), to replace the 5.56mm in the first instance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
 
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