I remember this episode. If I remember right it was a short barreled Army Colt. I can't remember if it was converted to cartridges or not but I have the DVD set so I'll check it one of these days. I believe it was percussion. That was a pretty good series.
6 Guns, Cowboys, Hollywood and the Truth
- Thread starter Good Ol' Boy
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I remember this episode. If I remember right it was a short barreled Army Colt. I can't remember if it was converted to cartridges or not but I have the DVD set so I'll check it one of these days. I believe it was percussion. That was a pretty good series.
Was it? Until someone can find period literature warning gun owners of the dangers of carrying six rounds in a Colt SAA (or equivalent) I don't believe it was customary. I think it probably did happen, after someone saw, or had an accidental discharge, but the practice would be limited to individuals who figured out that resting the firing pin on the primer would not be safe.
I am more certain that the five rounds and hammer over an empty is an industry created myth. Industry creates self serving myths all the time. This one is good for them, and good for us. It is good for them as since WW2, consumers have been lawsuit happy. Class action lawsuits for accidental discharges have happened before, and they are expensive. This was not the case before Product Liability was established https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_liability. Back in the bad old days, you killed your self or someone else with an inherently defective product, such events were considered Darwinian, and self elimination of idiots was considered to improve the genetic makeup of humanity! How times have changed.
Gun companies know that owners of new SAA revolvers, especially copies of vintage revolvers, revere the past. So, creating a myth about the past, that the ole timers did this or that, is more likely to ensure compliance today.
Based on what I have read, from period Cowboy books, this empty under the chamber did not exist as a concept. Safety notches for cap and ball pistols was recognized as a real need, from what I have read from Civil War material, but, I would like to see period literature warning about this. I have read a number of accounts of owners who shot themselves through the legs with three screw Rugers, so, even as recent as the 1960's, the so called customary knowledge to carry an empty under the hammer must not have been wide spread.
This does not change the fact that an empty under the hammer is the safest way to carry a traditional SAA or an unmodified three screw Ruger.
I watched Gunsmoke for too many years. Just this year I noticed something interesting in the lead in that runs at the beginning of each episode. Matt faces up to a bad guy and draws. Now I've probably seen every episode and never noticed that as his revolver is being drawn from the holster Dillon blinks. I'm not sure a true "shootist" would incorporate this technique. I'm not sure but the time the eyes are closed doesn't end till his revolver has fired. Interesting
Coyote3855
Member
In his classic Sixguns, Elmer Keith mentions knowing of a couple of cowboys who were shot in the leg when a heavy stirrup which had been hooked over the saddle horn to allow tightening of the cinch came down and hit the hammer on their cartridge Colt revolvers breaking the "safety" notch and discharging the gun. He relates those stores to stress that the 1873 should be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Elmer could be windy, but I reckon he knew more than Hollywood writers.
J-Bar
Member
And these excerpts from "Gun Notes, volume II" by Elmer Keith; Page 28, (September, 1972):
"Over the years I have known of many accidents from carrying a loaded round under the hammer of both (sic) Colt, Great Western, and Ruger single-action sixguns. Personally I carried but five rounds in my single actions for many years and only loaded the sixth in the cylinder if I was in sight of game and figured I might need the sixth round, or was expecting social trouble and wanted all six rounds if embroiled in a gunfight."
"...two friends of mine were hunting...one...carried a Super Blackhawk Ruger .44 Magnum in a cheap flimsy holster...the gun fell out, the hammer spur hit a rock, and the gun discharged right up past my friend's head...he learned a lesson on carrying six rounds in the cylinder.'
"...a trapper friend of mine (in Montana) was out for a ride with his wife in an old Ford even before the Model T. He had a 7 1/2 inch .45 Colt single action on the back seat of the old jalopy. They hit a bump in the road, the gun flew off the rear seat, came down on the hammer spur and discharged. The slug went through the front seat...killing his wife."
"Three friends of mine, over the years, have shot themselves down through the legs with single action Colts when cinching up their saddle horses. They had all six chambers loaded and wore the guns on their right hips. Their heavy roping stirrups were hung on the saddle horn swung down and hit the hammer spur with disastrous results."
"Once when hunting cow thieves in Montana, I was carrying a pair of .45 single actions, one on my belt with 5 rounds in it, the other in a shoulder holster under my vest, fully loaded. ...(my horse) stepped in a yellow jacket nest in an old log and all hell broke loose...My gun in the shoulder holster flew out of the spring holster. Its hammer spur hit a rock and boom she went, but fortunately was not pointed at me or my horse. I learned MY lesson then."
"The Colt, Ruger, and other single actions are not the only guns that will fire from a blow on the hammer spur when fully loaded. Harold Croft told me of a bank guard in Philadelphia years ago, with a fully loaded S&W Triple Lock in a loose shoulder holster. The gun fell out, the hammer spur hit the marble floor and it fired, killing the bank president ."
Of course we know that more modern firearm designs are safer with their hammer blocks. But Elmer's memories confirm that carrying a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber was safer, and those who loaded six rounds did so at their peril.
As far as Hollywood goes, the first thing I tell a new shooter before giving them the safety lecture is to forget EVERYTHING they have learned about guns in movies and TV shows. Looking for gun authenticity from Hollywood is so disappointing, because it is so rare.
Well, not quite. The first great movie stuntman was Charles "Hurricane Hutch" Hutchison, a silent screen star who created and did his own stunts for years. I.e., being pursued by the "bad guys," and encountering a running train blocking the road, he'd jump under the train between the wheels of the moving train, rolling out on the other side. First to ever do that in a flick. Another was being in a car again pursued by the "bad guys," a "friend" in a biplane would fly over, let down a rope ladder and Hutch would grab the ladder and climb out of the speeding car and up into the plane. Hutch was the first to fly a biplane into a barn. He was the first to drive a motorcycle from one side of a ravine OVER a train which was speeding through the ravine. The first to carry a heroine lady over a very narrow log which had fallen over a chasm beneath which was a raging river, again pursued by the "bad guys." I could go on and on about the many stunts he created for his own films. He wrote them, produced and directed them, stared in them, and did the stunts for his character.
There was no CGI, special effects, nor "cutaways" back in those silent days. Either the stunt worked or it didn't.
I know about Charles "Hurricane Hutch" Hutchison, and his silent screen star actress, wife, and sometimes co-star, Edith Thornton, because they were my great uncle and great aunt.
Most certainly Yalima Canutt was one of the all time great stuntmen in "the talkies," but he wasn't the first "true" stuntmen.
You can look them up on imdb.com if you're interested.
FWIW.
L.W.
Vern Humphrey
Member
A common method, described by Randolph Marcy in The Prairie Traveler was to take a sheet of leather and cut two slits in it. The sheet was placed in the lap, and the first slit "buttoned" with the saddle horn, and the rifle laid across the sheet (balanced on the rider's thighs.) Then the sheet was brought up over the rifle and buttoned again. This held the rifle quite securely.
Many authentic Indian rifles of that era show massive wear on the forearm -- sometimes to where the ramrod or magazine are exposed -- showing they were carried the same way, but without the leather sheath.
Myself, I like to hang the saddle boot from the gullet on the right side, pointed nearly straight down, and use the lower strap as a stabilizer to keep it from swinging around..
OP
OP
Good Ol' Boy
Member
I gotta another one for ya. I just watched Young Guns 2 for the umpteenth time. When Bob the constable has Billy locked up and mentions having $1.80 worth of dimes in two shells in his double barreled shot gun, is that even possible?
Vern Humphrey
Member
That would be 18 dimes, or 9 to the barrel. A standard load of buckshot for a 12 gauge gun would have been 9 Double Aught pellets. A dime is 0.705 inches. The bore diameter of a 12 gauge shotgun is 0.729 inches.
Yes, it's possible -- but it would have been an expensive and not very effective load.
Shanghai McCoy
Member
Yep. I remember checking to see if an old single barrel 12 had a choke by seeing if a dime would fit in the muzzle.
It did so I knew it was a cylinder bore. Not much for repeat shots but an almost, "sure thing" on a covey rise...
BSA1
member
"One newspaper report exists referring to Earp as "Officer Erp" (sic) prior to his official hiring, making his exact role as an officer during 1874 unclear. He likely served in an unofficial paid role.
Earp received several public acclamations while in Wichita. He recognized and arrested a wanted horse thief (having to fire his weapon in warning but not hurting the man) and later a group of wagon thieves. He had a bit of public embarrassment in early 1876 when a loaded single action revolver dropped out of his holster while he was leaning back on a chair and discharged when the hammer hit the floor. The bullet went through his coat and out through the ceiling. It may be presumed from Earp's discussion of the problem in Lake's biography Wyatt Earp: Frontier Marshal (published after Wyatt's death) that Wyatt never carried a single-action with six rounds again. In Lake's version, Earp did not admit he had first-hand knowledge of this error."
Earp received several public acclamations while in Wichita. He recognized and arrested a wanted horse thief (having to fire his weapon in warning but not hurting the man) and later a group of wagon thieves. He had a bit of public embarrassment in early 1876 when a loaded single action revolver dropped out of his holster while he was leaning back on a chair and discharged when the hammer hit the floor. The bullet went through his coat and out through the ceiling. It may be presumed from Earp's discussion of the problem in Lake's biography Wyatt Earp: Frontier Marshal (published after Wyatt's death) that Wyatt never carried a single-action with six rounds again. In Lake's version, Earp did not admit he had first-hand knowledge of this error."
Ive carried Colt SAAs with 6 rds and the firing pin down between the rims of the shells in both 44 spl and 45 Colt. The hammer/cylinder does NOT stay in place reliably, even in a well fitted half flap holster that not only covered the hammer, but held it down. I found the guns with the hammer down on a live round a number of times. I finally got smarter than I thought I was and carried them with 5 rds. I carried Colts several years off and on, pretty much all day daily.
Besides Keiths writing dating to the 20s, and him saying he learned of it from older guys, Ive seen writing from the 1880s, and I believe one from the 70s that mentioned carrying the Colt cartridge revolver with 5 rounds. They mentioned it was something that was learned after several people had unintended discharges carrying 6 with the hammer in the "safety" notch, as was the habit (hammer on the pins) with the percussion guns they had formerly used. I believe Ed McGivern also mentioned it, he was writing in the 30s. Saying its a later creation of industry is misguided and incorrect.
Someone mentioned seeing pictures of Winchester carbines carried with a cord loop through the so-called saddle ring (Winchester termed them "sling rings" like the military terminology) and hung off a saddle horn. Id love to see those pictures, Ive never seen one, and never seen any period writings that indicated it was done. There exists one picture I know of of two 1886 RIFLES (no sling rings from the factory) hanging off saddles, their pistol belts are also hung off the saddles. I believe it was in obeying town laws of not being armed in town, leaving their guns on their horses temporarily, not as a way to routinely transport the guns. The picture looks to me like the cord loop was run through the lever and around the stock wrist. it would be a hugely interesting and valuable find to locate two 1886 rifles (not carbines) that had sling rings. Without looking at the reference books, I dont recall any being so ordered, though there may well have been some.
The only real practical use of the ring I'm aware of is to carry with a sling loop as the military carried their carbines since the 1850s or so, or what would be termed a single point sling today. I know one person that tried the cord loop through the ring and over the saddle horn an old 94 carbine. He realized hed dropped the gun somewhere along the trail, he backtracked and found it a mile or two back. He stopped with that idea, once was enough. He went back to a scabbard after his adventure in western lore. I think the entire sling ring thing on Winchesters was a holdover from Winchester trying ti interest the Army in their guns. The ring just hung on by sheer momentum for many years. A similar example is the screwdriver slot in the end of the magazine caps. The early 1873s had a threaded, screw in magazine cap, but was changed to a cross screw in the late 70s I believe. The slot hung on until the late 20s or early 30s. Zero function. Just because thats the way it had been done before I guess.
The California Loop was fairly popular in the early years of the west, the scabbards became more so as time went on. The loop is depicted in several period art works that I can think of. Frederick Remingtons picture of two guys prospecting new cattle country is one such. One of the guys is carrying his rifle in the loop across his saddle, I think the other has a scabbard.
California loop https://22658-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/california-horn-loop.jpg
Both men still mounted have California loops in this painting
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_-_Aiding_a_Comrade_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
"Cowboys" is what seems to come to mind when the American West comes up, or in films, but we should keep in mind that actual cattle working cowboys werent the only people in the west by any means. Cowboy seems to have become the catch-all phrase for any western men, though many never had anything to do with cattle other than to eat them. For my part, by the time the west was safe for cattle, much of the interesting stuff was over. People did all manner of things to make a living though, working cows being one of many. Charlie Russel wrote a number of old hardcore frontier types he knew worked cattle later in life, after the fur was gone, buffalo done, mining played out in the area, scouting slowed down, meat hunting for the railroad or towns and military forts slowed up, or any number of other ventures frontier folks do to get by.
Besides Keiths writing dating to the 20s, and him saying he learned of it from older guys, Ive seen writing from the 1880s, and I believe one from the 70s that mentioned carrying the Colt cartridge revolver with 5 rounds. They mentioned it was something that was learned after several people had unintended discharges carrying 6 with the hammer in the "safety" notch, as was the habit (hammer on the pins) with the percussion guns they had formerly used. I believe Ed McGivern also mentioned it, he was writing in the 30s. Saying its a later creation of industry is misguided and incorrect.
Someone mentioned seeing pictures of Winchester carbines carried with a cord loop through the so-called saddle ring (Winchester termed them "sling rings" like the military terminology) and hung off a saddle horn. Id love to see those pictures, Ive never seen one, and never seen any period writings that indicated it was done. There exists one picture I know of of two 1886 RIFLES (no sling rings from the factory) hanging off saddles, their pistol belts are also hung off the saddles. I believe it was in obeying town laws of not being armed in town, leaving their guns on their horses temporarily, not as a way to routinely transport the guns. The picture looks to me like the cord loop was run through the lever and around the stock wrist. it would be a hugely interesting and valuable find to locate two 1886 rifles (not carbines) that had sling rings. Without looking at the reference books, I dont recall any being so ordered, though there may well have been some.
The only real practical use of the ring I'm aware of is to carry with a sling loop as the military carried their carbines since the 1850s or so, or what would be termed a single point sling today. I know one person that tried the cord loop through the ring and over the saddle horn an old 94 carbine. He realized hed dropped the gun somewhere along the trail, he backtracked and found it a mile or two back. He stopped with that idea, once was enough. He went back to a scabbard after his adventure in western lore. I think the entire sling ring thing on Winchesters was a holdover from Winchester trying ti interest the Army in their guns. The ring just hung on by sheer momentum for many years. A similar example is the screwdriver slot in the end of the magazine caps. The early 1873s had a threaded, screw in magazine cap, but was changed to a cross screw in the late 70s I believe. The slot hung on until the late 20s or early 30s. Zero function. Just because thats the way it had been done before I guess.
The California Loop was fairly popular in the early years of the west, the scabbards became more so as time went on. The loop is depicted in several period art works that I can think of. Frederick Remingtons picture of two guys prospecting new cattle country is one such. One of the guys is carrying his rifle in the loop across his saddle, I think the other has a scabbard.
California loop https://22658-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/california-horn-loop.jpg
Both men still mounted have California loops in this painting
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_-_Aiding_a_Comrade_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
"Cowboys" is what seems to come to mind when the American West comes up, or in films, but we should keep in mind that actual cattle working cowboys werent the only people in the west by any means. Cowboy seems to have become the catch-all phrase for any western men, though many never had anything to do with cattle other than to eat them.
For my part, by the time the west was safe for cattle, much of the interesting stuff was over. People did all manner of things to make a living though, working cows being one of many. Charlie Russel wrote a number of old hardcore frontier types he knew worked cattle later in life, after the fur was gone, buffalo done, mining played out in the area, scouting slowed down, meat hunting for the railroad or towns and military forts slowed up, or any number of other ventures frontier folks do to get by.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Both riders seem to have their carbines in a leather flap "buttoned" to the saddle horn, a la Randolph March.
Yes, that's sort of that they look like, buttoned on. And the California loop works with a rifle or carbine. Rifles were still quite popular in the west, despite carbines being shorter and handier.
I googled Randoph March, didn't get any results that made sense in relation to your post, can you give me a little more info?
Regarding Hollywood gun belt rigs, I bought one of those cheap collections of early early B grade westerns, a couple had John Wayne before he became popular. All the gun belts I recall looked like old, well worn real deal working rigs, rather than the fast draw rigs that later became popular. One in particular I recall had a number of the cartridge loop stitching pulled loose and the loops flopping around.
Vern Humphrey
Member
My apology. The name is Captain Randolph Marcy, author of The Prairie Traveler. a hand-book for overland expeditions. with maps, illustrations, and itineraries of the principal routes between the Mississippi and the Pacific..
Arkansas Paul
Member
Mythbusters acutally re-created this.
It fired perfectly safely, but did not do hardly any damage to the target (some kind of animal carcass). Would hurt like hell, but the victim would likely live to tell about it. IIRC they didn't penetrate at all.
Trunk Monkey
member
You can take it for what it's worth but reading the entire Little House series there is no mention by Laura Ingalls Wilder that her father even owned a handgun.
In the book In the heart of the Rockies (Fiction copyright 1894 BY GA Henty) the author specifically mentions that the quality of frontier rifles (circa 1850s) was pretty hit and miss (no pun intended) and that if you got a good shooter you hung onto it (The Saga of Hugh Glass). No matter what. Again, no mention was made in the book of anyone bothering with a handgun.
In the book In the heart of the Rockies (Fiction copyright 1894 BY GA Henty) the author specifically mentions that the quality of frontier rifles (circa 1850s) was pretty hit and miss (no pun intended) and that if you got a good shooter you hung onto it (The Saga of Hugh Glass). No matter what. Again, no mention was made in the book of anyone bothering with a handgun.
Tommygunn
Member
I never read the series, but unless there was some event that was portrayed when Father Ingalls used a handgun, it might have seemed gratuitous to bring possession of a pistol up if such was outside the narrative.
Trunk Monkey
member
Father's hunting rifle specifically mentioned in the first book and I want to say in the book The Long Winter it was mentioned that all they were out on the plains in their wagon they were almost overtaken by a suspicious individual who they were absolutely positive was intent on robbing them. Diring that incident no mention was even made of Father having any firearm at all
Airman Basic
Member
I remember reading somewhere, maybe Elmer, to never leave your rifle on an unmounted horse. Never know when the nag might take a notion to flip over on his back to ease an itch. We mostly rode bareback, but I saw several examples of scratchy mounts doing exactly that.
J-Bar
Member
If you ever take the time to visit the Laura Ingalls Wilder Historic Home and Museum in Mansfield, Missouri (about 45 minutes east of me in Springfield) you will see a neat little .22 rimfire revolver that Ms. Wilder carried in her purse. I suspect that firearms ownership and use in her time was so common that she didn't think it was necessary to write about it.
Link to museum website:
http://lauraingallswilderhome.com
Link to museum photo of the revolver:
http://lauraingallswilderhome.com/?page_id=2
Link to museum website:
http://lauraingallswilderhome.com
Link to museum photo of the revolver:
http://lauraingallswilderhome.com/?page_id=2
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Read the DeVoto Trilogy -- the history of the West and the fur trade. There were plenty of handguns in the Rockies.
Now, single shot handguns weren't all that effective. But read Empire of the Summer Moon to see the impact revolvers had on the frontier.
splattergun
Member
The 2-gun man.
I find the idea of a cowboy or gunfighter wearing 2 guns to be about the most ludicrous Western fiction construct of all. I've come to literally hate seeing it in movies or reading it in books. It was a scenario commonly used in western novels of the late 1910s.
A loaded SAA is in the neighborhood of 4+ pounds. Add another couple pounds for a belt, holster and ammunition. Now put on a second one. An ungainly weight to deal with at best. I can't imagine hauling 12+ pounds around on my hips all day and try to work cattle.
My father's uncle was a cavalryman with Gen. George Crook. After a medical discharge (stone arrowhead lodged in the knee) he spent 20 years in Arizona. He is quoted as saying, about cowboy moives, "no western man ever wears 2 guns. Only a greenhorn would do that, but not for long". He hated the idea, too.
I find the idea of a cowboy or gunfighter wearing 2 guns to be about the most ludicrous Western fiction construct of all. I've come to literally hate seeing it in movies or reading it in books. It was a scenario commonly used in western novels of the late 1910s.
A loaded SAA is in the neighborhood of 4+ pounds. Add another couple pounds for a belt, holster and ammunition. Now put on a second one. An ungainly weight to deal with at best. I can't imagine hauling 12+ pounds around on my hips all day and try to work cattle.
My father's uncle was a cavalryman with Gen. George Crook. After a medical discharge (stone arrowhead lodged in the knee) he spent 20 years in Arizona. He is quoted as saying, about cowboy moives, "no western man ever wears 2 guns. Only a greenhorn would do that, but not for long". He hated the idea, too.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually, there are plenty of accounts of men with multiple guns. The Texas Rangers were famous for it. In the early days, it was clear they would have to fight mounted to deal with the Commanches -- which meant shooting while at a gallop. Since the odds of hitting were small, and it's difficult to reload a muzzle loader on horseback, the Rangers carried multiple guns. When Colt Patterson revolvers were issued to the Rangers, they were issued in pairs. The famous Colt Walker revolvers were made to be issued in pairs and so marked.
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