7.62x25 Considerations

[Ash]

Well, 7.62x25 surplus ammo, in my experience has been crap and I refuse to buy it any more. Click bangs and click clicks were very regular for Yugoslav AND Czech ammo. I had better results from Romanian and Bulgarian, but it was still just too darn frustrating to shoot. I gave the ammo away and kept the wooden ammo crate. Now, I have a pile of Chinese surplus ammo, and for some reason, it works just fine. It's much newer and that may explain everything.

Ash

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

yeah the chinese 7.62x25 is the best surplus x25 around

 

[FEG]

No one really makes 7.62x25mm on a large scale anymore. Most of the surplus is 40-60 years old, and a lot of it is crap. It will become fantastically expensive like true .30 Luger cartridges when the cheap surplus dries up.

I'll be brutally frank. I don't get people's enthusiasm for this cartridge. It doesn't accomplish anything that a more common cartridge cannot do. It certainly isn't comparable to the majority of short-action rifle cartridges.

On CZF, we get a lot of CZ 52 owners who ask why no one makes a modern, high capacity pistol in 7.62x25mm. (Actually, Zastava did until recently.) The reason is that they are GROSSLY overestimating the demand for a handgun like that.

 

[Ash]

Winchester rebrands Sellier and Bellot ammo, and Privi-Partisan makes their own brand, as well as Wolf Gold, ammo. Commercial ammo is very reasonable per box. In any case, the firearms that shoot 7.62x25, in total numbers, dwarf those that shoot 30 Luger in America. Demand will remain much higher.

But consider this: .32 Mag ammo is produced for really just a handful of revolvers out there, yet is generally available and not very expensive. This is because of the large number of Nagant revolvers out there, but all the same, the ammo is very reasonable. The sheer numbers of CZ-52's and Tokarevs, as well as the smaller numbers of carbines built from submachine gun parts, will guarantee the continued life of 7.62x25 for quite a long time. It will take a very long time for it to become the boutique cartridge that 30 Luger is.

Ash

 

[FEG]

Winchester rebrands Sellier and Bellot ammo, and Privi-Partisan makes their own brand, as well as Wolf Gold, ammo. Commercial ammo is very reasonable per box.

Because it is competing with military surplus. When it is the only game in town, you're going to feel the bite. Think Fiocchi 9x21mm or .30 Luger.

I hope for the sake of all the CZ 52 and Tokarev owners I am wrong, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[Tigerclaw_x]

The best!!!

7.62x25 is my favorite pistol cartrige as well. Has great penetration ability, if your target is in body armor - no problem. He is still getting perforated.
To be honest, if SOMEONE would make a 7.62x25 handgun with double stack mags, I would have traded my Glock 31 for it.
As far as SMG round. It has better trajectory and penetration then 9x19mm. If sure has better trajectory and penetration then .45. My grandfather, who started his career in Finland War and ended as military adviser in Vietnam has said that they would feel confident engaging the enemy about 250-300meters away with PPSh and PPS. He also said how nicely those worked when the opposition would hide behind the trees. My grandfather spent most of 1946 and 1947 chasing Ukrainian Nazi Lackeys through the forests and Karpatian Mountains of Western Ukraine. He claimed that PPSh was better then anything he have ever seen for that kind of fighting.

My grandfather - SubColonel of Soviet Army.
My other grandfather - Major of Soviet Army. Both of them loved PPSh and PPS. One of them handled Thompson and claimed it was the worst POS ever imagined. "How could americans who build such a wonderful cars, trucks and radios be unable to build a descent submachinegun??"

 

[Ash]

With S&B and Privi-Partizan in town, plus the larger number of rounds (oh, and I forgot the FNM stuff), there's many companies producing.

And the fact that they saw the value in producing in direct competition with surplus shows their reading of demand. Three companies producing the ammo will provide ample competition, plus the level of demand which is already higher than for 30 luger.

Ash

 

[FEG]

And the fact that they saw the value in producing in direct competition with surplus shows their reading of demand. Three companies producing the ammo will provide ample competition, plus the level of demand which is already higher than for 30 luger.

OK. I am starting to come around to your way of thinking. That is, I may have overstated the problem. I hope you're right, because 7.62x25mm is a PITA to reload.

 

[Mp7]

---

i just love the oldskool style of the TT33.

it´s like the glock... beautyful in an ugly way.

a TT33 in combo with sumthin like
a keltec carbine in x25 would be awesome.



... i think i´d even want to get TWO!

 

[kBob]

When I bought my CZ75 in Germany in 1982 Iwas told they were also available in 7.62x25.

I wondered about Over all Cartridge length at the time.

Never saw one.

On the other hand I did see a 9x19 mm VZ52 in Germany in 1975.

But back to rifles....

I wonder if one of the little Spanish Destroyer bolt action carbines might be changed from 9 Largo at a reasonable price?

FOr that matter the cheapest .223 bolt action one can find might be convereted with a new barrel. You figure out the feed issues.

How about a don't break the bank AR15 upper and magazine block?

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[airy-plane]

Twist rate

Clark I'm courious what long guns you converted to 7.62X25? Was twist rate considered? I just received a Spanish Destroyer that I would like to convert to the 7.62. Most 30 caliber barrels are 1 in 10 but I think the 30 M1 is 1 in 16 and the Marlin M62 is 1 in 20. I have a Speer number 6 reloading manual with some twist rates, but for the 30 calibers it doesnt go below 200 fps and 110 grains and there the twist is 1 in 19.6. I would like to shoot a 85 or 90 grain bullet at 1500 to 1600 fps out of a rifle. The reason for the rifle is to be able to hit something at 50 to 75 yards. Thanks Earl

 

[leadcounsel]

Of note, www.theboxotruth.com tested many handgun calibers on the US Military kevlar helmet. Of all of the handgun ammo tested, including heavy hitters like the .357magnum, only the 7.62x25 punched a hole in the kevlar!

 

[Clark]

Clark I'm courious what long guns you converted to 7.62X25? Was twist rate considered? I just received a Spanish Destroyer that I would like to convert to the 7.62. Most 30 caliber barrels are 1 in 10 but I think the 30 M1 is 1 in 16 and the Marlin M62 is 1 in 20. I have a Speer number 6 reloading manual with some twist rates, but for the 30 calibers it doesnt go below 200 fps and 110 grains and there the twist is 1 in 19.6. I would like to shoot a 85 or 90 grain bullet at 1500 to 1600 fps out of a rifle. The reason for the rifle is to be able to hit something at 50 to 75 yards. Thanks Earl

I got an old Remington 721 30-06 barrel off EBAY, but off the chamber, cut new threads, put it on a 1903 Turkish [Orberndorf] Mauser, cut a new chamber with a 30 Mauser reamer, welded onto the extractor and re ground it, drilled, tapped, bent the bolt, mounted a scope, etc.
Took it to the range once, with these results:

1) 30 Mauser rifle with M8-4x Leupold scope, S&B ammo and then Polish
surplus ammo.
a) S&B ammo 1.3" 5 shot group at 50 yards, 2.33" 5 shot group at 100
yards [could barely see the target with 4x scope]
b) Polish 1955 surplus ammo 4.8" 19 shot group at 50 yards

I got a parker Hale .308 bull barrel from Numrich Gun Parts Corp, cut the threads and chamber off, and cut the Tokarev rings. I had Randy Ketchum TIG weld on the link. I chambered it in 30 Mauser and shot single shot. I made a scope mount for the barrel and put a Leupold 2x7 scope on it.

With these results:

I have a 2x7x32 Leupold Vari-II rifle scope on it.
I was using S&B 7.62x25mm factory ammo.
The chamber is reamed with a 30 Mauser reamer, but the differences are
minute, and have to do with a shoulder angle on a shoulder that is
barely visible.
I used no recoil spring.
I fed single shot without a magazine.

At 50 yards I shot two 5 shot groups; 2.1" and 2.5"
At 100 yards I shot one 5 shot group: 4.2"

What does it all mean?
1) To answer your question, 1 in 10" twist is not the best for 86 gr bullets.
2) I make allot of disastrous guns that only get one trip to the range, but a few months back, I converted a 1917 Sav 99 to 6mmBR and got 0.2moa @50y and 0.3moa @100y. That was an old benchrest take off barrel in 1 in 14" twist. That rifle got two trips to the range.