barnbwt
member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
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- 7,340
Are you sure you aren't getting 32acp volumes for Carbine by accident or something? It's a slightly narrower cartridge, but significantly longer than anything under consideration (even Tokarev).
TCB
Yes to the first part, heck no on the second. Tokarev punches high for what it is, but 223 is simply a far, far, far larger round. More powder, way faster, and bullets that tumble/expand a lot more than Tok can hope for. You have to chop a 223 in half to form a Tok case; there is no possible way they can be comparable in ultimate power. Now, if you are only focused on momentum, then yes, the 223 goes like 50% faster while weighing about 1/3 less from a short barrel (PDW, not pistol length, for which the 223 would be so wildly overbore as to be a laughably impractical flamethrower). The problem with such a singular viewpoint, is dynamics of the equation change a bit around 2000fps, which is the very ceiling Tokarev could possibly attain with some load work, where you get the splash/fragmenting/shock/hydro effects of full-on rifle rounds that simply don't come into play any slower.how absolutely awesome would a PDW/SMG/pistol caliber carbine firing that load be? that would be hitting with a force likely GREATER than that of 5.56 out of an AR-15 pistol
Very true, but it's not like straight taper cases are particularly bad-feeding in this day and age. Magazine and feeding has been more or less perfected in most all design formats. That said...Bottleneck pistol rounds feed great and it is less dependant upon projectile shape
I had an idea a while back to form a Tokarev case from 223 to the same length as Tok's OAL, then seat the FMJ bullet backwards, flush with the neck. That's like another 1/4" or 25% of case length, and I bet it'd still feed as well as many flat-nose tapered rounds. I also bet the extra 'boom' would get you over 2kfps easily . If my Skorparev carbine works well, I'll be making another barrel & reamer to pursue this sorta-kinda-low-rent telescoped ammunition idea.Imagine a 50 grain flying ashtray type load out of a 7.62x25 going a spicy 2,000 fps.
Where the heck's Clark? He's done all this already to some poor abused TT33's, and could answer all our questions. Normally he's along in short order to set folks straight on Tokarev vs. CZ52 strengthsim really starting to like my idea of trimming and necking 5.56 brass down to 7.62x25 and loading that stuff to 55,000 PSI or so of pressure and see what it can do out of a 10" carbine
Spring two bills for one of the new production Zastava Tokarevs, and another bill for a CZ26 parts kit. The first is a great value and good quality by all accounts (the CZ52 looks way cooler IMO, but it simply has too many issues, design and production, to be a good test bed for anything very interesting --one of the few Czech weapons blunders), the second an incredibly advanced-for-its-time SMG that would've beaten the pants off the Uzi if not for the Iron Curtain.yeah, i think im going to order me one of those, or a CZ52, id like to spend a bit more time with 7.62x25 but i have nothing that fires it
1911 magwell is too wide, but a 9mm one might be doable (assuming the grip wasn't shortened in the process). The 38 Super conversions work if you seat the bullets deep, or stack them diagonally in the magazines & lose capacity/reliability. Sadly, even the super cheap Star/etc. 9mm Largo guns aren't quite long enough to accommodate the mighty Tokarevdo you guys think it would be possible to tweak a 1911 frame to fit a TT33 mag
TCB