7.62x25 tokarev, and backstops. ?s

[anothernewb]

got a couple questions for anyone that might know.

The short version is our indoor range backstops are simple 1/2" thick angled steel plates, not AR500 or any ballistic rated stuff. We explicitly state no magnum cartridges at the range. and checking for them is part of the routine. Our range was built back when Bullseye competitions were the norm and it was pretty much constructed around the idea of lower speed rounds.

One of the other RSO's noted seeing a few 7.62x25 casings - most likely from the weekend shooters. As one of the people responsible for range maintenance, it's fallen on me to assess whether or not we should allow them. Looking at the paper specs for the cartridge it looks like a hard no.
But having zero experience with the round at all, I would like input from others who may know something about it before I make a decision.

 

[starling]

If you are not letting magnums be shot there I would say the 7.62x25 is a no go. The bullet is designed for heavy penetration. I refer to it as 8mm magnum sometimes and the Tokarev is essentially the first Original Automag that had high production numbers.

Sounds like it might be time to start thinking about convincing the owners at the indoor range to upgrade things. Where are all your members supposed to shoot their new Automags and Desert Eagles? 38super, 357sig, and 10mm penetrate as well. Maybe not like the 7.62x25 but they get close to magnum levels in the right loads.

 

[anothernewb]

Thanks for that info.

Sadly, with the shoestring the range is running on, plus the dearth of income from covid closure last year, and now the high cost of ammo which dropped our membership by 60% this year. I doubt there will be anything other than necessary maintenance for the indoor for the short term future. Rates will have to go up in 2022 - but who knows what's that's going to do to the membership.

There has been some investigations into improving the backstops in the past. Due to the nature of things though it's essentially going to require an addition to the building and a full remodel to accommodate things. (not to mention the hazmat for moving what we have now) It's a long term plan, and a catch 22 for us. We need more membership to pay for the upgrades, but we need the upgrades to attract more membership. This coming years focus is going to be on outreach and advertisement. If we can show a decent ROI on that, that'll make future updates more feasible.

 

[Riomouse911]

Thanks for that info.

Sadly, with the shoestring the range is running on, plus the dearth of income from covid closure last year, and now the high cost of ammo which dropped our membership by 60% this year. I doubt there will be anything other than necessary maintenance for the indoor for the short term future. Rates will have to go up in 2022 - but who knows what's that's going to do to the membership.

There has been some investigations into improving the backstops in the past. Due to the nature of things though it's essentially going to require an addition to the building and a full remodel to accommodate things. (not to mention the hazmat for moving what we have now) It's a long term plan, and a catch 22 for us. We need more membership to pay for the upgrades, but we need the upgrades to attract more membership. This coming years focus is going to be on outreach and advertisement. If we can show a decent ROI on that, that'll make future updates more feasible.

That’s a few catch-22’s you’re facing there .

The worst ones are when a simple upgrade is wanted for an older range like yours, the permitting agencies demand you upgrade the entire place from parking lot to restrooms up to modern code. These tricks put so many places in a bind because they’re basically saying you have to start from scratch just to fix one thing, so ultimately the things don’t get fixed because of the cost and hassle.

I hope you’re able to increase membership, it’s tough to find a safe place to shoot without driving all over down here. (I don’t know, maybe get a few certified instructors together to offer some free 8-hour introductory handgun courses for new gun owners?)

As for the high speed Tok ammo, I agree that’ll dent and ding the standard plate if used. I’d not allow it either.

Good luck and stay safe.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

got a couple questions for anyone that might know.

The short version is our indoor range backstops are simple 1/2" thick angled steel plates, not AR500 or any ballistic rated stuff. We explicitly state no magnum cartridges at the range. and checking for them is part of the routine. Our range was built back when Bullseye competitions were the norm and it was pretty much constructed around the idea of lower speed rounds.

One of the other RSO's noted seeing a few 7.62x25 casings - most likely from the weekend shooters. As one of the people responsible for range maintenance, it's fallen on me to assess whether or not we should allow them. Looking at the paper specs for the cartridge it looks like a hard no.
But having zero experience with the round at all, I would like input from others who may know something about it before I make a decision.

According to the guys who bought the indoor range in Micanopy, FL, they had to upgrade the HVAC, flooring, restroom facilities (the county they're in requires non-cisgender "unisex" accommodations) and replace all of the plates with some rated for small rifle in order to allow 7.62mm Tok and that class of firearms. It's just under a .30 Carbine as far as backstops and plate penetration, if that gives you an idea. It cost them around $40K 12 or so years ago, IIRC. Might have been more. This is the old place Harry Beckwith (RIP) had with his business partners for 40 years or more. They use it for CCW classes and pistol rentals - that helps offset the costs.

 

[CapnMac]

Hmm. 7.62x25 has a reputation for being "hot." But, if you ban it, you are likely going to have to also ban .30luger, .30mauser, .375sig, .357mag, .38super and the like, too.

Now, color me impressed that the shooter(s) had 7.62x25 to shoot after all these long lean ammo times.

 

[anothernewb]

Hmm. 7.62x25 has a reputation for being "hot." But, if you ban it, you are likely going to have to also ban .30luger, .30mauser, .375sig, .357mag, .38super and the like, too.

We actually have a notice up on the door that magnum calibers aren't allowed. We have a few 38 super shooters in the club, but since they hand load they keep their loads down to 9mm levels.

 

[anothernewb]

According to the guys who bought the indoor range in Micanopy, FL, they had to upgrade the HVAC, flooring, restroom facilities (the county they're in requires non-cisgender "unisex" accommodations) and replace all of the plates with some rated for small rifle in order to allow 7.62mm Tok and that class of firearms. It's just under a .30 Carbine as far as backstops and plate penetration, if that gives you an idea. It cost them around $40K 12 or so years ago, IIRC. Might have been more. This is the old place Harry Beckwith (RIP) had with his business partners for 40 years or more. They use it for CCW classes and pistol rentals - that helps offset the costs.

Yep. We just got done with the HVAC remodel last year. $205k. about 7 times our annual operating budget. We had a decent kitty built up. but that wiped us out. We're running with less than 10% extra currently.

We do run CCW classes as well which is absolutely the reason we are still open at all. We offer a package deal with a year membership with the course.

We are the cheapest game in town, and just about the only indoor range on our side of the state that's left operating. There are 2 indoor shooting facilities about 60 miles away to the west that are rated for full rifle, and one even has a 100 yard lane. But you'll pay for that privilege. I think the membership is something like $60 a month plus lane fees. The next closest indoor range is 90 miles in the other direction, with a similar fee schedule. We are $60 a year, plus a $5 nightly fee for members ($10 non members)

We know we're cheap probably way too cheap, but there's another catch 22 cost vs our venue - we've got a big limitation on what you can actually use.

Our biggest snag is the change in demographics and range use. The hot tickets today are steel challenge and 3 gun competitions. We need to adapt, or we won't survive. And maybe that's the way it will go. The club might very well not survive the coming days. Although a few of us have decided that if the club faces closing it's doors, we will look at the feasibility of turning it into an actual business and see if we can gather enough scratch to remodel and reopen in a competitive manner. We certainly have location and a few potential advantages on our side. But hopefully the awareness and advertising makes enough impact to turn things around.

 

[lsudave]

Now, color me impressed that the shooter(s) had 7.62x25 to shoot after all these long lean ammo times.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Re shooting Tokarev- a few folks read the market correctly last year. I was one, and took advantage of it.
Long after "cheap" 9mm Luger got priced through the stratosphere, obscure calibers like 7.62 Tok and 9mm Largo remained at their regular price and availability. That normally meant it was more expensive and harder to find... but if you knew where to look, it was still there.
Last fall (2020), I picked up a case of Largo and a tin of Tokarev. They were still priced the same as, say, 2019. Which meant they were now cheaper than 9x19. I had platforms (Norinco T-54 and Star Super) that could use them, but my versions had Luger barrels. So I located the proper barrels for the other calibers (found them each at under $60 a barrel), along with the ammo.

Seems like 9mm Makarov also held low. I didn't get any because I was already stocked, but I saw Mak this spring or summer at 30 cents a rd, when Luger was still in the 40's everywhere. Also, there was a few months when the absolute cheapest ammo anywhere was 7.62 Nagant (which I don't have).

Interesting phenomenon, which tells me to keep as many unique calibers as possible. You just never know which one will be the only thing you can find.

 

[starling]

Now you are just making excuses to buy more guns. You are right though. Obscure stuff was cheap for a while. I bought a bunch of 7.63 mauser for my Toks. I also bought a bunch of 7.62 Nagant in case we have an invasion of baby rabbits or kittens. Of course I have not shot any of it.... just look at it once in a while and scream to the heavens "Its Mine... All Mine".

 

[Reloadron]

One of the other RSO's noted seeing a few 7.62x25 casings - most likely from the weekend shooters.

Did anyone note the cartridge headstamps? Years ago tons of military surplus 7.62 x 25 poured into the country. Brass case berdan primed and steel billets in the bullets. I watched a guy shoot some on my indoor range. Sparks were flying at the steel backstops. I understand some of this stuff was loaded for machine gun. Not exactly what you wanted for the then popular Czech CZ52 pistols which were pouring in. A magnet would pick those bullets right up.

Following Sandy Hook I sold off a bunch of Starline brass I had and think I still have some Starline brass. I still have a few of those milsurp berdan primed brass cases. Those steel core bullets will tear up a backstop and sparks will fly. With what you have mentioned and looking at your backstop I would run with a no.

Ron

 

[.455_Hunter]

A machine shop that we use for work had done some work on a piece of thick (~2" to 3") layered polycarbonate ballistic window material for a bank. They had taken the disk cut-out for a speaker assembly to the range for some impromptu penetration tests- .38 Special lead out of a snub (158 gr LRN?) just made a gray smudge (dangerous!), and 9mm 115 gr FMJ out of a Beretta 92 buried itself just to the base of the bullet.

I borrowed the disk and took it out with my CZ52 and a round of Norinco early 90's 7.62x25mm Tokarev- copper washed matching steel case and bullet. Placing it against a spruce stump, the bullet made a dimple on the front, a dimple on the back, a .30 cal hole in the front of the stump, a slightly bigger hole in the back of the stump, and buried itself in the hillside.

Needless to say we were all impressed.

 

[tark]

I have fired thousands of 7.62X25 rounds through my C-96 and my Yugo M-57. Quite a few at steel plates. Not armor, but plain old steel plates. The non-steel core ammo makes an impressive dimple in a half inch thick plate. The steel core, a deeper dimple, but neither round comes anywhere near penetration. However, if the plate is angled 45 degrees both bullets leave only a smudge. The steel core will usually spark.

Is the plate at your range angled? How much? The greater the angle the less damage to the plates the bullets will do. Is it within the range's budget to increase the angle of the plates in the backstop? I know of a range in California that had a simple rule. If the bullet sticks to a magnet, no can shoot!!!!

I would grab the first Tok I could and test fire some at a plate, after hours. See how much damage the bullets do, if any, and base your decision on that.

 

[anothernewb]

They are indeed angled, maybe close to 45, perhaps a little over that. I did check out the backstops last week. I did find some pitting and cratering in one of them. No penetration, but the pits are deep enough to warrant some repair, there's a nasty rolled lip on one of them that virtually guarantees bad ricochets.

So now I likely gotta find some hard welding rod and a grinder.

 

[Random 8]

Penetration and damage to steel is a function of both velocity and bullet construction. A high velocity-soft material bullet will damage steel, especially mild steel. A slug containing harder-than-steel materials will also cause mechanical damage in addition to/enhanced by any high velocity effects. With the 7.62x25 Tokarev at ~1600 fps or higher with some hot military loadings, you can absolutely experience velocity pitting of mild steel. I do not have experience with the round using copper/gilding jacketed bullets, but I can say from experience that military jackets including mild steel will cause pitting of mild steel (railroad cross ties). My shooting range is in the woods, and incorporates a riccochet target on occasion, as well as mild plates at various distances and shot angles. It is a mild plate spiked to a tree trunk at an angle with an A500 plate obliquely downrange. It is a special treat to ding hard cast lead off the angled plate and get a double "ting" off the second. AR-15 soft points and 7.62 Tokarev will cause superficial damage to the angled plate including gouges and chips. 90 degree impacts from 7.62 Tokarev military ammo will cause significant dimples in the mild steel plates. High velocity light bullet .357 Mag will do likewise with a known gilding/lead core bullet of 110 grains. .41 Magnum 210 grain jacketed or hard cast will not cause significant velocity pitting. By comparison Eastern block 7,62x54R steel core will occasionally penetrate them and leave significant craters if not a through and through. 30-06 M2AP will reliably perforate them.

You likely need a velocity AND a steel jacket/core restriction to eliminate excessive damage of your backstop.

 

[Terry G]

It is a hot little bugger. I took my Tokarev to my LEOSA qualification and afterwards we took an out of date ballistic vest and attached it to a target stand. The 7.62X 25 sailed right through both the front and the back.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I went to the indoor range today and they were closed for repairs to the range. They’re replacing the heavy steel plates with new polymer panels. Even the heavy plates only last for so long. It looks like the upgrades are going to be a big improvement.