7.62X25 vs. 9mm, ball ammo stopping power

[peacebutready]

The 7.62X25 ('bout .30 cal.) and 9mm ('bout .35 cal) are a couple of cartridges from WWII. They're both available now, of course. Assuming ball ammo only, which has more stopping power/knockdown power/threat ending power, whatever you want to call it?

The 7.62 has about 100 ft/lbs more energy. The power factor (weight X velocity) is about the same. I guess it may depend on whether the 7.62 yaws or not.

 

[Shadow 7D]

There is no such thing
sorry, but your question is MOOT
beginning to end, like all caliber questions, it comes down to ONE THING
hitting what you shoot at.

Past that it physics, and well, the known laws haven't changed...

 

[barnbwt]

Doesn't matter, you'll hit the guy with 7.62x25 from a good 30 yards further out than you could with a 9mm, so by the time he needs "stopping" he'll have an extra hole or two that's been leaking longer, and an extra few seconds to reconsider the charge. And hits will likely penetrate deeper than 9mm at all ranges 9mm wouldn't also be through-and-through. And your fireballs will shock and awe the opponent even when you aren't connecting

Any reason you care about ball vs. what is actually available for defense use?

TCB

 

[KevinB]

No such thing as stopping power. Sure you can compare ballistics and energy all day long, and it looks like you have a handle on that pretty well, but as far as the practicality of such principles nobody knows. If any one cartridge from the commonly used group of defensive ammunition was measurably better than the other, it would've been discovered by now. You may put one through the heart of an attacker and they have enough fight in them to kill you before they go down, and in another situation, a shot to the toe might drop them like a sack of taters.

If you're looking for a cartridge for a defensive round my suggestion is 9mm for the much greater availability.

If you're looking for a discussion in ballistics and historical use, well you've come to the right place. You may just have to word your question a little differently.

 

[peacebutready]

Any reason you care about ball vs. what is actually available for defense use?

I was comparing them for military use.

If you're looking for a cartridge for a defensive round my suggestion is 9mm for the much greater availability.

If you're looking for a discussion in ballistics and historical use, well you've come to the right place. You may just have to word your question a little differently.

I noticed the 7.62 actually loses energy more quickly than the 9mm even though the trajectory is flatter.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Simple answer is that either round is going to be marginal with FMJ unless you hit a major artery or CNS. They'll just poke neat little holes in the body.

That said, with available bullets, I'll take 9mm. It has benefitted from infinitely more R&D than .309" pistol bullets.

 

[Monac]

Deleted.

 

[Shadow 7D]

You know, in 2013 I had to buy a new car (the old one got totalled when an out-of-towner ran a red light. No injuries, fortunately.) I was trying to decided between a Honda and a Nissan. Then it occurred to me: "Your question is moot. It all comes down to which one will start, because a car that won't start isn't good for going anywhere at all. After all, physical laws don't change."

That turned out not to be very much help, for some reason, and I wound up buying a used 2012 Chevy Malibu. Less than 4,000 miles on it! (It starts fine.)

Thats funny, because in your own story, you prove my point...
NOW
List the factors in wounding dynamics...
come on big boy, list every variance and variable...
and explain to me, what that has to do with the numbers of what comes out the barrel of the gun.

There is only one king, and that is shot placement.

BTW, a $50 moped, or a $2000 Cannondale all get you there the same as Bugatti
when it comes to wounds on the battlefield
WHICH WAS NOT THE QUESTION POSED
There are tons of records to pour over, that will tell you all the same thing, pistols are a compromise.

 

[Powderman]

There are a number of variables in play, one of which is bullet design and construction. However, based on the criteria in the original post you have one outstanding factor to go on here, and that is pure speed.

The 7.62x25 functions on blistering speed and a light bullet. An 85 grain bullet moving at horrendous speed will do nasty things to a target made of flesh and blood.

At a longer range, there might be more penetration--in a straight line--with the 9x19.

If you're talking about the sbility to stop a threat, consider this: The human body is much like a big hydraulic component. Every physical action your body takes is driven by hydraulic force. Thus, what happens when you shoot in defense is to put a leak in that hydraulic system. BIG leaks.

Thus, the most efficient calibers will be the ones that will cause big leaks, no matter what the original caliber of the bullet is.

 

[peacebutready]

There is only one king, and that is shot placement.

And the queen is penetration. I guess that's immaterial considering it's ball ammo we're discussing here.

The 7.62x25 functions on blistering speed and a light bullet. An 85 grain bullet moving at horrendous speed will do nasty things to a target made of flesh and blood.

Not sure if this beats the 124 grain .35 cal bullet. Servicemen have complained about the M4 rifles overseas. If the bullet does not fragment, knockdown power is less than good with the 5.56.

Thus, the most efficient calibers will be the ones that will cause big leaks, no matter what the original caliber of the bullet is.

And the one that causes bigger leaks of these two may depend on if and when they yaw. I have no idea whether the 7.62X25 typically yaws.

 

[Monac]

Shadow 7D, I would suggest that people already know that bullets that do not hit have no stopping power, and therefore do not need to be reminded of that fact. That is what I was trying to suggest, in a humorous way, in the post I deleted. I deleted it before I saw your reply, because your point is quite correct; I just felt it did not answer the original poster's question in any useful way.

What people are concerned with, and what the OP was specifically asking about, is what happens AFTER the bullet hits someone. You are also correct in saying that shot placement is very important, and perhaps critical; but I think it wrong to suggest that the energy (weight and velocity) possessed by the bullet, and its construction are completely unimportant because their effects cannot be perfectly described.

For decades after the Wright Brothers, for instance, aircraft design was a very inexact science. Yet some airplanes flew well and some flew badly, and to ignore which was which would have been a great mistake. I don't understand why knowledge has to be perfect before any kind of decision can be made.

I apologize if this thread has departed from the original question and become needlessly personal. I noticed that Shadow 7D has been here much longer than I have and has made many more posts, which was another reason I deleted my original post.

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, you have valid points, and just cause you been here for a while doesn't make you a expert (unless your name is Mas... but he doesn't comment much, for reasons he's stated before)

HOWEVER, my point, is in this specific incident, ball 9mm and ball .32 is ball
these rounds are not going at the speed for cavitation to have a huge effect

Icepick vs screwdriver
understand is there are a TON of factors that matter for THAT outcome
there's no magic number, composition etc. I was addressing this in my first post

"knockdown power"
Here's physics, there is MORE power in a fat middle age guys not very hard punch, than in a ball .50BMG.
What bullet composition, and energy does is tell you how to use it, and to give you an edge, however slight.

Next, somewhere, there's researchers going through hundreds? thousands? millions? case histories (reading medical charts) concerning outcomes, and this has been going on since before WWI. Is there a possible way to compare these calibers how the OP wants, no. Honestly, if there is, it's in buried in over 100 years of research through primary and secondary sources. Has research been done, definitely YES... and in these two cases, both rounds were found an acceptable compromise. Consider the not blistering fast 9mm is the one that lasted, less penetration is a positive? or more likely, it was the platform, the weapons designed to use 9mm and that many found it a reasonable compromise.

Bullet composition counts in energy TRANSFER, and how it's transferred.
but until you disrupt a major and vital system.... Go up a few forums and read the .22 as a SD round.

In the end it's a compromise of platform (gun) energy bullet and what you want that bullet to do, penetrate well, fly far and fast, dump the maximum amount of energy....

When I said list them, this is what I wanted you to do, in every case from hunting to battle ship main guns, life is a compromise.
The Tokarev solves the problem one way, the 9mm a different, both are a solution.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Stopping power.. lots of research on that subject from scientists to morgue monsters to ex-cops to internet junkies.

Stopping power is no myth. It is just not a 100 percent thing.

Overall they have found bigger bullets TEND to stop better, faster bullets TEND to stop better, bullets like JHPs TEND to stop better, and those shot in vital places TEND to be stopped better.

None are 100 percent but you can put the odds in your favor by picking those that are bigger, faster, better designed, and.. you can control (that is shoot strait and fast with.)

7.62x25? Fast, but small and of poor design. So shoot real strait if you want to use it.

Deaf

 

[Jim Watson]

The decision has been made at far higher levels than gunboards. 7.62x25 usage is low and declining. Even the Russians have 9mm P pistols.
In some circles, this is known as a clue.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Hmmm.... well I might be wrong, but I've heard 7.62x25mm can yaw sometimes, and that might make a bad wound. But really, I think it's a close comparison. In both ball rounds, I don't think you'd see much improvement one over the t'other. I think I actually rather have the 9mm as it has a bit less recoil and muzzle blast. This is important even in full on combat.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Calling it stopping power is a MYTH
ain't no such thing...
Go look up your hunting rounds... tell me all about the 1 to 10 scale of stopping power...

Seeing people survive being shot with .50 BMG, and walking out of the coalition hospital 2 weeks later... Shot placement is king, always has been. Shooting someone in the pinky toe might stop them, shooting them with a .357 (the case I'm thinking, wife shot husband) between the eyes, isn't a guaranteed, the guy walked IN the ER, and was out the hospital a few days later, with little more than a bad head ache and bone damage. There isn't any single number that can tell you how a bullet will wound, too many variables.

Cooldill, I'd rather have a 9mm because the guns designed for it have 3x the capacity of the Tokarev...

 

[Thermactor]

Like many of you, I used to daydream about CZ-52s and stupid-fast hot-loaded surplus Stalinist ammo when I was a lad.

by the time I got into the sport, combloc C&Rs had dried up. The CZ-52s were gone, and the 7.62x25 ammo to be found was the neutered factory stuff that went way slower.

So that's a bunch of nope with a side of nope for me. And what did I do back then? I went with the Sig P6 deal for $250, marrying into the Parabellum family.

 

[dogtown tom]

The real question is how many goats did 7.62x25 kill in the Strasbourg tests?

 

[kBob]

Pistol bullets function on living targets to cause them to stop through four means:

1. Destruction of the Central Nervous system or major nerve trunks that control movement or organ function.

2. Bleeding to produce medical shock

3. Destruction of major support bones and connective tissue

4. Psychological effects such as fear

Julian Hatcher back in the early 1900's thought the .30 Mauser a powerful round based on how much it moved a piece of hanging beef WHEN IT HIT A BONE. (Emphasis intentional)

Both cartridges are capable of more than enough penetration at "normal" pistol ranges.

There really is no science in this. Whether folks come up with mathematical models or record the general results of shootings. It is all just interesting to know.

I like what one old training circular for the US Army said "Only Hits Count" (ignoring number 4 above as it is very "iffy") and in this case only hits that achieve numbers 1, 2, and or 3 above count.

We all just have opinions.

Personally as they are both moving more than the speed of sound but less than Mach 2 and both are to be hard patch bullets not expected to expand without bone impact I personally would prefer the larger diameter and heavier round for personal defense.......because it makes me feel better.

-kBob

 

[Deaf Smith]

Calling it stopping power is a MYTH

Well the likes of David Spauling, Massad Ayoob, Dr. Martin Fackler, Tom Givens, and others disagree.

Massad Ayoob and David Spauling did a lot of research in the morgues and police records and found pretty much what I posted. They are both well known retired policemen and instructors.

Same for Dr. Martin Fackler (THE Dr. Martin L. Fackler. Retired colonel in the US Army's Medical Corps. Served as a battlefield surgeon and was the head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Medical Center.)

That does not mean Stopping Power is absolute and can be quantified to the last decimal place.

There are so many factors besides the cartridge makeup involved. Not only such things as shot placement, type and amount of clothes worn, distance, angle of the shot, but also physical and physiological makeup of the one being shot.

But yes, larger bullets tend to do better, faster ones to, heavier ones to, better constructed ones to, etc...

Sure many people are killed with a .22, but rarely stopped, and stopping is what matters.

My wife was a ER nurse, Trauma 1 nurse, CV-ICU nurse, head of CV-ICU, director of CV nursing, and she has told me that as the size and power of the cartridge increased, more and more of them were carried in. Many of them shot with .22s and .25s just walked in!

The only ones she saw aways carried in were those shot with shotguns. And I've even heard of a few of them continuing the fight!

BUT, that does not mean there is no such thing as stopping power. The military, the police, firearms instructors, and anyone with sense knows one picks the largest most powerful gun they can handle and shoot strait.

Deaf

 

[Monac]

Thanks for your courteous reply, Shadow 7D. I think I must have misunderstood your first post, because I agree with your answer to my deleted post. In particular, between these two kinds of ball ammo, there is nothing to choose.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Stopping power, ballistics, myths, truths, gel tests, medical reports, etc all aside....

... If I were in a time machine zapped back to WW2, I'd rather have a 7.62x25 Tokarev than a 9mm Luger pistol. Maybe it's a good choice, maybe not, but mentally, it is what I'd want and feel more secure with.

But I don't think sidearm caliber does much to win wars, especially in such bloody combat.

 

[Deaf Smith]

So now let's take the 7.62x25 compared to say, .45 ACP JHPs of the DPX variety (yes an extreme.)

The FMJ Tork round has small bullet area, poor ballistic design, low mass. But it does have quite good penetration due to high velocity, in fact too much penetration.

The .45, on the other hand, has lots more bullet area, excellent shape (and even better shape once it strikes), much more mass to.

Does that mean the 7.62x25 is piddling and incapable of stopping? No.

Does that mean a hit with the .45 in their pinky finger will drop 'em? No.

But it does mean unless a very good hit is made, or bone struck, it's not the best of stoppers while the .45 has more margin of error in shot placement (but no, a hit in the foot won't do.)

If you use the Tork round, get a good JHP design bullet, and a weapon platform you can easily hit with, and practice well.

But if all you have is FMJ.. in either the .45 or 7.62, then aim VERY well.

Deaf

 

[peacebutready]

Does that mean a hit with the .45 in their pinky finger will drop 'em? No.

I remember a fellow in a LGS from a long time ago saying "you're going down no matter where you get hit" with the .45. LOL

If you use the Tork round, get a good JHP design bullet, and a weapon platform you can easily hit with, and practice well.

There's some that penetrate about 14" in ballistic gel, which happens to be similiar to many 9mm HP rounds.

 

[Jim Watson]

WW2, I'd rather have a 7.62x25 Tokarev than a 9mm Luger pistol

Me, too, but not for the ammo. The Browning/Petter/Tokarev action is more reliable than the Luger.