7.62x25 Woods Gun Load

[Tony k]

My girlfriend carries a Cz52 in 7.62x25 tokarev as a saddle pistol/ woods gun. Amazing caliber, interesting pistol, terrible trigger. Anyway we want to work up a load that would have more effective terminal performance than the factory fmj ammo.

I was planning on trying Hornady 90gr XTP and Sierra 85gr round nose.

I'd like some powder suggestions please. For high velocities, H110/W296, and Power pistol are obvious choices, but we don't want the fireball.

Can anyone point me towards a powder that's either low flash or has a flash suppressant that might give good velocities in this caliber?

BE86?
CFE pistol?
Sillouette?
Accurate 11fs?

Thanks!

 

[joneb]

I have no experience with this cartridge but if a TT-33 were to fall in my lap Accurate #7 would be my first thought.

 

[GBExpat]

... we want to work up a load that would have more effective terminal performance than the factory fmj ammo. ...

FWIW ...

Years ago I bought a QTY of commercial S&B 7,62x25 85gr FMJ when it was inexpensive.

For SD/HD rounds I simply replaced the 85gr FMJs with some 86gr Hornady RNSPs.

The process is quick & easy and the resulting terminal performance is much improved

 

[Tony k]

I gotta say thanks to ramshot and alliant. I emailed ramshot at 930pm Pacific last night and they got back to me at 0700 this morning.

I emailed Alliant this morning at 0636 and they got back to me at 0657. I rate that as excellent customer service regardless of the answer.

FWIW ...

Years ago I bought a QTY of commercial S&B 7,62x25 85gr FMJ when it was inexpensive.

For SD/HD rounds I simply replaced the 85gr FMJs with some 86gr Hornady RNSPs.

The process is quick & easy and the resulting terminal performance is much improved

We've got about 200 S&B cases and a couple PPU. As you know, these pistols launch brass into orbit, so lost brass is common. It's almost like they are trying to defect to the West.

 

[armarsh]

AA #9

 

[Tony k]

Well, I made it to the big city today and found some Ramshot Sillouette, which was my first choice based largely on its advertised claims about flash suppression.

In the aforementioned email, The Ramshot rep recommended #9, then Sillouette, then #7.

I also picked up a jar of W296 just for kicks and because powders were $2 off. I'm kicking myself because H110 was five dollars less than W296. I got mesmerized by all the powders and got confused about which powders were equivalent.

As an aside, why are Winchester powders more expensive than the exact same thing in a hodgdon jug?

 

[mstreddy]

IIRC something I read some time ago, Hodgdon has to pay a royalty for the Winchester name.

 

[Tony k]

IIRC something I read some time ago, Hodgdon has to pay a royalty for the Winchester name.

That's what I figured. I guess since I paid $27.99 for the W296 when I could have paid 22.99 for the H110, my loads will be better, right?

 

[Stumper]

186% better. It isn't about price it is all about number differentials. :^)

 

[someguy2800]

Where I live its the opposite. 296 is a couple bucks cheaper than H110

 

[ArchAngelCD]

With a 90gr Hornady XTP bullet here is some data.

AA#5 - 5.5gr to 6.2 gr
AA#7 - 7.2gr to 8.7gr (from Hornady)
AA#9 - 7.8gr to 10.1gr (from Hornady)
W540/HS-6 - 4.8gr to 6.6gr
2400 - 8.6gr to 11.8gr (from Hornady)

 

[Tony k]

With a 90gr Hornady XTP bullet here is some data.

AA#5 - 5.5gr to 6.2 gr
AA#7 - 7.2gr to 8.7gr (from Hornady)
AA#9 - 7.8gr to 10.1gr (from Hornady)
W540/HS-6 - 4.8gr to 6.6gr
2400 - 8.6gr to 11.8gr (from Hornady)

Hornady data seems decent. Lymans is very mild. Here's the data from Ramshot customer service:
Anthony,

Here is a couple different powders to choose from. Accurate #9 as a first choice followed by Ramshot Silhouette, then Accurate #7.


Caliber: 7.62x25 Tokarev.

Barrel length: 4.8”

Groove Dia.: .309”


Powder: Accurate –no9®.

Bullet weight: 85/86 grains.

Start load: 9.5 grains (ca 1300 Fps)

Maximum load: 10.6 grains (ca 1500 Fps) LD ca 78%

Bullet weight: 90/93 grains.

Start load: 9.2 grains (ca 1275 Fps)

Maximum load: 10.8 grains (ca 1475 Fps) LD ca 76%.

Bullet weight: 100 grains.

Start load: 8.0 grains (ca 1075 Fps)

Maximum load: 9.2 grains (ca 1325 Fps) LD ca 74%.

Bullet weight: 110 grains.

Start load: 7.6 grains (ca 1100 Fps)

Maximum load: 8.5 grains (ca 1250 Fps) LD ca 72%.


Powder: Ramshot – SILHOUETTE®.

Bullet weight: 85 grains.

Start load: 6.5 grains (ca 1250 Fps)

Maximum load: 7.7 grains (ca 1450 Fps).

Bullet weight: 90 grains.

Start load: 6.1 grains (ca 1275 Fps)

Maximum load: 7.2 grains (ca 1400 Fps).

Bullet weight: 100 grains.

Start load: 5.7 grains (ca 1200 Fps)

Maximum load: 6.7 grains (ca 1350 Fps).

Bullet weight: 110 grains.

Start load: 5.2 grains (ca 1025 Fps)

Maximum load: 6.1 grains (ca 1225 Fps).


Powder: Accurate –no7®.

Bullet weight: 85/86 grains.

Start load: 7.7 grains (ca 1200 Fps)

Maximum load: 9.6 grains (ca 1450 Fps) LD ca 67%

Bullet weight: 90/93 grains.

Start load: 7.4 grains (ca 1175 Fps)

Maximum load: 9.2grains (ca 1425 Fps) LD ca 65%.

Bullet weight: 100 grains.

Start load: 6.8 grains (ca 1075 Fps)

Maximum load: 8.5 grains (ca 1350 Fps) LD ca 63%.

Bullet weight: 110 grains.

Start load: 6.1 grains (ca 1000 Fps)

Maximum load: 7.6 grains (ca 1250 Fps) LD ca 62%.

NOTES:

It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.

1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.

2. CAUTION: Beware of double charging if the loading density is below 50% of the available volume.

Examples:

Ø Most Handgun caliber/powder combinations as well as

A-5744 with reduced loads for rifles






Don W.

CSR

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yes, it does look like the Hornady data is in line with the Western Powder data. It looks like you have what you need. Don't forget the range report and load information when you test the ammo. Good luck.

 

[Tony k]

Yes, it does look like the Hornady data is in line with the Western Powder data. It looks like you have what you need. Don't forget the range report and load information when you test the ammo. Good luck.

Thanks.
I'm going to try w296 and Silhouette. Plan B powders are Bullseye and Power Pistol. Plan C is 800x

I do not have a Chrono, though this little project make me want one.

Dies and bullets should be here Wednesday. Hope to have results by Saturday.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks.
I'm going to try w296 and Silhouette. Plan B powders are Bullseye and Power Pistol. Plan C is 800x

I do not have a Chrono, though this little project make me want one.

Dies and bullets should be here Wednesday. Hope to have results by Saturday.

Like you already said, W296/H110 and Power Pistol are loud and flashy. 800x meters like corn flakes and Bullseye is an extremely fast powder so I wouldn't use it either.

IMO AA#7 and AA#9 would be my first two choices followed by HS-6 and AA#5 for lighter range loads. Those would be my choices even though I only have AA#5 and HS-6 in stock. I would buy at least AA#9 to try on full power SD loads.

 

[Tony k]

Alright. Got out to test the loads today.
Sellier & Beloit Brass
Winchester small pistol primers
Hornady 90 gr XTP seated to 1.320"

Tested 5 rounds of each of the following:

Ramshot Silhouette
6.2gr- soft shooter. Didn't group well, but I was getting used to this pistol.
6.5 gr- also a nice shooter.
6.8- recoil starting to ramp up but still milder than factory ammo.
7.0- couldn't really tell the difference between this and 6.8
7.2- nice shootability. A step down in felt recoil from factory ammo.

I really like this Ramshot Silhouette powder. It reliably cycled the action from min to Max. Zero muzzle blast. VERY clean burning regardless of charge. My only disappointment is that it doesn't achieve the velocity of the factory ammo based on my recoil perception.

Winchester 296
10.2gr- wouldn't cycle the action. Dirty. Notably louder than the Silhouette.
11.3- cycled the action but wouldn't lock the slide back.
12.3- small fireball/ flash visible in broad daylight on a sunny day.
13.3-even bigger fireball, but seemed accurate
14- big dumb fireball. About as Stout as the factory ammo. Decent accuracy.

I knew there would be flash with the 296, bit this was kinda rediculous. Fireball from the shooters perspective was bigger than that produced by mosin m44 with surplus ammo. The highest charge tested was flinging brass a little farther than the factory ammo and the recoil felt similar. Unfortunately, the fireball makes this powder impractical for the purposes here.

I'll probably play around with the Silhouette some more. Anyone have different published Max loads with this powder? I see that Sierra goes all the way up to 7.9 grains with their 86 grain bullet and Winchester Action Pistol, which is supposed to be the same as Silhouette.

This is a nifty little cartridge. I'm probably going to end up getting a CZ52 or an M57 for myself!

 

[joneb]

So which of the powders mentioned in this thread are flash suppressed?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Flash suppression? Part of the awesomeness of shooting a CZ-52 in 7.62x25 is the earth-shattering ka-boom and the orange fireball, especially in a shaded shooting range near dusk or on a cloudy day. Shock and awe, Czech style.


Seriously, I have found the S&B factory ammo to be pretty fine, although the last time I carried my CZ-52 while ATVing on the mountain I carried Wolf Gold (made by PPU, pi-pi-upsilon, Prvi Partizan).

I do reload for a worn-out C96 Mauser, cream puff 7.92x25mm, for the local black powder cartridge and vintage military matches. The factory 7.62x25 rounds fulfill my needs for the CZ-52 and I don't reload for it. The CZ-52 was designed for the Czech M1948 round, which is a stiff load, but the CZ-52 is not indestructible. People have wrecked CZ-52 pistols trying to hotrod them.

 

[Tony k]

Flash suppression? Part of the awesomeness of shooting a CZ-52 in 7.62x25 is the earth-shattering ka-boom and the orange fireball, especially in a shaded shooting range near dusk or on a cloudy day. Shock and awe, Czech style.

Ha!
The s&b factory ammo has NOTHING on the W296. Big fireball in broad daylight.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

"... W296. Big fireball in broad daylight."

Tempt me to start reloading for my CZ-52 ...