7.62x39 v. 7.62x51 short range wounding differences

Balrog

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
3,211
7.62x51 has longer range, flatter trajectory, more energy, and more accurate than 7.62x39. None of those things are my question.

My question is, at ranges less than 150 yards, how much difference would there be in wounding characteristics against human adversaries for these 2 cartridges?
 
Heavier bullet going faster says the x51 has the edge. Bullet design could change that if not restricted to FMJ.
Yes, I would agree. But will it really make a difference? 7.62x39 is already a formidable cartridge. Is 7.62x51, even though more powerful, really going to cause more wounding or more rapid incapacitation at short ranges?
 
Dead is dead. No such thing as deader.

At 100-150 yards I think any human you shot would show exactly the same results. But right around 150 yards is where the 308 might start to show an advantage. Certainly by 200 yards I think the X39 is starting to fade. And if you're talking about game animals larger than 150-200 lbs then the 308 has the advantage at any range.
 
This thought process is why intermediate cartridges were adopted. At 250 meters or so and under, a hit is all that matters and you get more rounds of the smaller ones for the same weight.
IMHO, the bigger cartridges were adopted to stop horses (cavalry) plus ground pounders. By 1943, not much cavalry anymore.
 
FMJ bullets yaw 180 degrees in flesh, because traveling backwards in soft tissues is their stable state. This is because the bullet's center of gravity is closer to the bullet's base than tip.

Steel core Russian 7.62x39 FMJ penetrates deeper (10-12 inches) before it yaws than Yugo lead core FMJ, due to the Yugo's shorter bullet length. Between the two, Yugo FMJ is the better choice for wounding effects.

7.62x51 M80 ball reaches 90 degrees of yaw after penetrating 8-10 inches. Some M80 bullets snap in half at the cannelure as it yaws through 90 degrees and fragments like 5.56 M193 and M855 ball, due to differences in bullet design.
 
If were stuck with fmj military ammo, there may be less difference at close range. Technically the 7.62 Soviet will make a slightly larger (0.310 vs 0.308) hole. If we can vary bullets, the 7.62 NATO will always come out on top for terminal ballistics at a given range. It just has more energy, so if you can match expansion and penetration to the target, it can do more.
 
This thought process is why intermediate cartridges were adopted. At 250 meters or so and under, a hit is all that matters and you get more rounds of the smaller ones for the same weight.
IMHO, the bigger cartridges were adopted to stop horses (cavalry) plus ground pounders. By 1943, not much cavalry anymore.
People seem to forget that there are more things on the battlefield that need shooting than just soft squishy people, even in 1943.*

The U.S. Army required full power cartridges because they wanted an AP projectile that could penetrate the (then current) Soviet APC, the BTR-152, of which there were quite a few.** However, by the 1960s the Soviets had fielded the BTR-60 which was armored against anything smaller than Caliber .50, so now Caliber .30/7.62mm AP was of limited value, and this opened the door to the acceptance of less powerful infantry cartridges.

___________________________________
* While not much cavalry, of the 264 combat divisions in the German Army (1944), 222 of them relied on horses, or mules for all transport of supplies or movement of equipment, mainly artillery. The Soviets did maintain one cavalry corps in each Tank Army. In the East, where the logistics of maintaining horses was easier that trucks the number of cavalry units was higher. During the Soviet invasion of China and Manchuria in 1945, the last major cavalry operation took place when a Cavalry Mechanized Group, under General Issa Pliyev, consisting of six cavalry divisions and five tank brigades made a push towards Peking (Beijing).

** Just about all the development firing of the T25, T47, T4 and T48 was done with T104 steel core Ball or T93 AP ammunition.
 
will it really make a difference? 7.62x39 is already a formidable cartridge. Is 7.62x51, even though more powerful, really going to cause more wounding or more rapid incapacitation at short ranges?

Evaluation of engagement data shows that it doesn't. This largely describes why the US adopted the 5.56x45 and dumped the 7.62x63 and x51 to begin with.
 
Last edited:
From my experience there is a pretty big difference in performance at all ranges. 7.62 Nato dumps dudes with authority. Shots to the body usually won't show a big difference in the external wounds. However wounds to limbs and the head show a distinct difference.

All that being said, I'm a big proponent of the intermediate cartridge theory. They work good enough and have other benefits such as weight, size, and recoil. There is much more to combat than the lethality of the cartridge. To me the benefits of 5.56/7.62x39 outweigh the higher performance of the 7.62x51.
 
The US Army people with stars on their personal flags ended WWII with something of a fixation on Known Distance shooting at extreme ranges (and on pristine range facilities).
And doctrinally, the US had a fifty year habit of shooting MG ammo in their rifles.
These were flip sides to functionally the same coin.

And, functionally, ignored all the actual aspects of actual battlefields. Where individual rifle-carrying soldiers tended to only engage targets they could see (and those targets were trying, typically, to Not Be Seen. And a good way to Not Be Seen was to not all stand up as a Squad and lob rounds off "thataway" a half kilometer or more off. Especially when you could just send somebody to the MG section/Squad and have them blast away from behind sandbags and the like. Where some other snuffies had drug up all the piles of ammo the MGers needed for such adventures.

Now, enough folk had come up through the muddy ranks to at least agree that modern warfare wanted smaller units, of greater agility, and often, in smaller group sizes than before. A significant way to accomplish that is by reducing ammo weight. Hacking 7.92x57 down to 33mm case length (59% as long) is one way. Doing similar to 7.62x54r to 7.62x39 (72% as long) is another.

Now, when the US Army boffins looked at going from 7.62c63 to 7.62x51 (81% case length) they were convinced they were "still in the ballpark."
They wanted it to be an 800-900meter ballpark and not 1200m.
And they wanted it to be MG ammo, too. That despite decades and score of years of separation of those ammo supplies at Brigade and Regiment levels.

It took until Curt LeMay wanted AF security troopies to have "more rifle" than their aging 30 Carbines, and entertained giving them all GAU-5s bought of fan AF contractor, Fairchild to really stir the pot and cement the notion of a "rifle cartridge" and an "MG cartridge" (which was then muddied when FN ginned up the Minimi as a rifle-cartridge Squad Auto Weapon, later adopted as the M-249).

So, to OP's point, there's likely no biological difference, just an engineering difference. Shoot a goat with a 9x17, another with a 9x18, and a third with 9x19--the goats are unlikely to be that different in end result We, in the "gun culture" are easily "hung up" on engineering differences. That's because "we" tend to be a precise lot, and pay attention to small, but significant details.

We also tend to apply logic and reason to things around "us," as well. This get complicated when applied to nights like militaries, governments, and the like, where being "thick as a plank" is so common as to appear to be a prerequisite. Applying logic where none exists is fraught with difficulties.
 
Interesting thread; 17 years ago I was handloading 7.62x39's with 123 gr. Hornady soft points with enough RL-7 powder to get them up to about 2263 FPS from an SKS for deer hunting. Never got to try it on a deer before I switched over to a 30-30. Couple years ago I thought about that load when I substituted a 150 gr. Nosler Accubond for the 150 gr. FMJ bullet in the .308 target load at about 2550 FPS, using IMR-4064, for the M-1A, again with deer in mind. Don't have a ballistics program on this computer since I got a new computer a few years ago and my old "Load From A Disc" software isn't compatible with the new computer. If anybody out there with a ballistics program could run some numbers using the bullet, bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, and velocity data from above, then perhaps we could get some short range energy figures between the two, which would reflect wounding & lethality. I'm sure the OP would be interested in that, as I would also be. I even have a pic of those 7.62x39 & .308 hunting loads here on the computer. 7.62x39 123 gr. sp & .308 150 gr accubond.JPG .. Thanks in advance to anybody that's able to run those numbers. I don't have the ballistic coefficients for the two bullets listed but I assume that most programs have a bullet database, like my old program did.
 
Since 7.62x51 wasn't adopted until after WWII, cavalry and horses weren't the issue. Light armored vehicles might be Sea Biscuit's counterpart.
It was made to be roughly equal to .30-06, which was made in 1906. The US Army wasn't ready to go to intermediate cartridges, even after WWII, until the '60s. If they'd have listened and not foisted their what amounted to obsolete opinions on the rest of NATO, .280 British would be a thing.
 
Yes, I would agree. But will it really make a difference?

I can answer this fairly definitely. MAYBE. However, I would say the odds are much more in favor of x51.

x51 should do more damage than x39. That additional damage may make a less good shot better in terms of stopping a threat by damaging structures the x39 bullet would fail to damage. I would expect the permanent wound cavity to be larger on the x51 and of course the temporary would cavity will be as well.

x51 has a greater chance for a hydrostatic shock (remote wounding of structures away from the wound channel) stop, but hydrostatic shock isn't a given.

If the x51 hits bone, the bone shrapnel will have more energy and should do more damage than x39 bone shrapnel because the bone is going to be hit by a bullet at higher velocity carrying more energy than the x39 bullet.

Between the two, the x51 is going to be the one most likely to overpenetrate and you could make a difference to someone down range that you don't intend to harm and will likely be a much greater threat to things down range farther beyond your target than x39.

As indicated above, if there are barriers involved, definitely the x51.
 
7.62x39
123gr @ 2,350fps (Factory Hornady Black SST)

Or

308WIN
125gr @ 3,100fps (Factory Nosler BT)

Which one would you rather get hit in the gut with?

I love the x39 but it’s not on the same playing field as 308WIN
The question is not the numbers. I agree they are all better with 308. The question is, will it make a difference.

A nuke is better than 500 pounds of TNT. Drop either on me and I am dead.
 
The question is not the numbers. I agree they are all better with 308. The question is, will it make a difference.

A nuke is better than 500 pounds of TNT. Drop either on me and I am dead.

If talking the numbers I presented with 308Win vs x39 then I would emphatically say yes it would make a difference. I’ve seen what that 308 load with a thin jacket can do to a coyote it nearly cuts them in half.

If I were going on patrol with expected distances <200 yards and wanted a load out of ammunition and you asked me what I would take between the two it would be 7.62x39.

This still doesn’t equate to them being equal on performance shot for shot.
 
The US Army people with stars on their personal flags ended WWII with something of a fixation on Known Distance shooting at extreme ranges (and on pristine range facilities).
And doctrinally, the US had a fifty year habit of shooting MG ammo in their rifles.
These were flip sides to functionally the same coin.

And, functionally, ignored all the actual aspects of actual battlefields. Where individual rifle-carrying soldiers tended to only engage targets they could see (and those targets were trying, typically, to Not Be Seen. And a good way to Not Be Seen was to not all stand up as a Squad and lob rounds off "thataway" a half kilometer or more off. Especially when you could just send somebody to the MG section/Squad and have them blast away from behind sandbags and the like. Where some other snuffies had drug up all the piles of ammo the MGers needed for such adventures.

Now, enough folk had come up through the muddy ranks to at least agree that modern warfare wanted smaller units, of greater agility, and often, in smaller group sizes than before. A significant way to accomplish that is by reducing ammo weight. Hacking 7.92x57 down to 33mm case length (59% as long) is one way. Doing similar to 7.62x54r to 7.62x39 (72% as long) is another.

Now, when the US Army boffins looked at going from 7.62c63 to 7.62x51 (81% case length) they were convinced they were "still in the ballpark."
They wanted it to be an 800-900meter ballpark and not 1200m.
And they wanted it to be MG ammo, too. That despite decades and score of years of separation of those ammo supplies at Brigade and Regiment levels.

It took until Curt LeMay wanted AF security troopies to have "more rifle" than their aging 30 Carbines, and entertained giving them all GAU-5s bought of fan AF contractor, Fairchild to really stir the pot and cement the notion of a "rifle cartridge" and an "MG cartridge" (which was then muddied when FN ginned up the Minimi as a rifle-cartridge Squad Auto Weapon, later adopted as the M-249).

So, to OP's point, there's likely no biological difference, just an engineering difference. Shoot a goat with a 9x17, another with a 9x18, and a third with 9x19--the goats are unlikely to be that different in end result We, in the "gun culture" are easily "hung up" on engineering differences. That's because "we" tend to be a precise lot, and pay attention to small, but significant details.

We also tend to apply logic and reason to things around "us," as well. This get complicated when applied to nights like militaries, governments, and the like, where being "thick as a plank" is so common as to appear to be a prerequisite. Applying logic where none exists is fraught with difficulties.
Sorry, but there is a lot wrong here.

First, the Army did not have a fixation on KDR, the post-war Army was the one that initiated the research what would evolve into TRAINFIRE. This research was done with multiple parallel tracks, "What is the most likely range a combat engagement will take place?" "What is the best way to train people to shoot accurately?" "What shooting positions are most relevant to combat shooting?" "What would be the best target?" "How should progress be measured?" etc. After a lot of research and development, the best affordable, and usable, system was fielded. How good it actually was/is is another debate, but also beside the point, which is the Army looking to make marksmanship training as realistic as possible from very early on.

Second, the 7.9 Kurtz was never intended to less powerful rifle, but a more powerful submachine gun. German infantry doctrine was that the assault element would hold fire until with 100 meters of the objective, then, and only then, they would rush the objective, firing at the maximum rate possible. Troops found SMGs best in this application. During the movement to the objective all fire was by indirect weapons or the next higher element's MGs. This is very different from US infantry doctrine. Soviet doctrine was different still.

Third, the US were not fixated on long range fire, but AP performance, as noted above. This is the reason why the US turned down the British 7mm. The early T65 cartridge was loaded with a 130 grain projectile, similar to the British round, but at a much higher velocity for a flatter trajectory (which makes range estimation less an issue). Eventually, effectiveness against vehicles drove the projectile weigh up.

Fourth,
Shoot a goat with a 9x17, another with a 9x18, and a third with 9x19--the goats are unlikely to be that different in end result
If by "end result" you mean - there is a hole in the animal - you are correct. If by any other assessment, there is a good bit of difference, how long it lives after been holed (if it actual was killed by the shot), its initial reaction to being shot, amount and type of tissue damage, etc. This was well demonstrated during the "Homologous series of Rifle" tests, which tested similar construction .22, .25, .27 and .30 caliber rounds against goats and ballistic gelatin.

Fifth, Lemay wanted the AR-15 to replace the Carbines with the Air Police. The GAU-5A/A (aka XM177) was not examined by the military until 1965 with the CAR-15 Submachine Gun
 
Back
Top