7 mm Magnum vs. .270 WSM?

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Buck13

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I'm vaguely planning to get a medium game rifle. Not going to see much use, so I figure it should cover everything I might ever hunt, which means pronghorns to mule deer and *maybe* an elk (ideally a cow since I'm more interested in eating than mounting it). A buddy who fancies the 7mm STW (which is more obscure and more painful than I'm interested in) had talked me up from the .270 Win to the .270 WSM. Looking at the availability of brass and ammo, it seems like the old 7 mm Magnum would be a better choice. Anyone really see any significant difference in the performance of those two? Or any other reason to choose one over the other?
 
For what you're describing, any of the .30-06, .308, 7mm mag or .270 along with their ballistic twins like the .270 WSM would be fine. Any one of them will do 90% of what any other of them will do.

Personally, I like the 7mm. The bullet selection is more to my liking than in .308 caliber, the recoil is acceptable, and you can get a nice flat trajectory even with high sectional density bone breaking bullets. It'll handle elk, no problem.

If you take elk off the table, I'd go .270 or .25-06.
 
Llama rather succinctly summed it up. 30-06 will also work well if elk is in the mix. If elk is off the table, ye olde 270 Win does all that is needed.
 
I'm a big fan of flat trajectory, so I'd take the 7 mm Mag over the .30-06. My previous medium game hunting is limited to pronghorns with a .243. We zeroed at 300 and considered anything out to an estimated 300 (so, not to be trusted) to be point-blank. That was before range finders were a very attractive option. Even with laser ranging, I'd prefer not to be tweaking a scope, and just use the ranging as a go/no-go decision if it's far enough beyond the zero to need correction for drop.
 
Real numbers.

The 270 WSM doesn't beat 270 by more than 50 fps with equal bullet weights. Not enough difference to matter.

The 30-06 has been handicapped by anemic factory ammo with the fear that someone will load it into a WW-1 era rifle. With modern handloads a 30-06 will shoot the same bullet weights at the same speed as 7 mag. In equal weights the 7mm bullets are more aerodynamic and will have a very slight edge out past 400 yards.

There is no reason to beat yourself up with recoil and ammo costs. For what you want to do 7-08 or 308 are adequate to at least 400 yards. You can go 30-06 or 270 if you want to. But bullet diameter doesn't kill stuff, putting a good bullet into the vitals kills stuff. There are guys taking elk at 600 yards with 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor.
 
Agree with all above, plus I predict that the shortfat, ultrastuff, rumssm, stuff will continue to fade off into the sunset. Think 225 Win. (Try getting my made up abbreviations past autocorrect).
 
Of all the WS(S)M cartridges, the .270 is the only one that is (arguably) better than the old .270. I'd go with the 7mm Rem Mag, even though belted cartridges are somewhat of an anachronism. When someone gave me a substantial quantity of once fired 7mm brass, I found that I had to collect size it, just to get it to chamber in my #1.
 
The 270 WSM doesn't beat 270 by more than 50 fps with equal bullet weights

Actually its a little more than that. Looking at federal factory ammo with 150 gr. partitions its 270 fps. I like the 270 WSM, but its a handloaders proposition. A lot of rifles are being chambered in it, so I think its here to stay.

I'm a big fan of flat trajectory, so I'd take the 7 mm Mag over the .30-06

With equal weight bullets trajectories aren't significantly different until about 4-500 yds. I'm not badmouthing the 7mm mag., just sayin'
 
The following is not a jab at you jmr40.

There are guys taking elk at 600 yards with 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor.
Yes, and there are guys wounding deer an elk at much less than 600 yds with those same rifles. I am not picking on anyone with my post but a mature elk can absorb a lot of bullet energy and anyone claiming to shoot one in the vitals with consistency at 600 yds is full of crap. No one brags about the misses and wounded animals. A simple and common occurrence is the angle of the animal and/or how it might be standing on a sidehill. Moves the vital are 6 inches sideways or up and down. If a hunter does not care about experimenting with small caliber rounds, I guess that is fine for them, I will continue to call hunters out that act as though they do this kind of shooting with consistent one or two shot kills. Hey just keep shooting until the animal is hit, try tracers so the bullet arc is apparant. I imagine to take this further to the point of ridiculousness, why not an ar in 5.56 at 600 yds with iron sights. Sooner or later one of those little bullets would hit the heart and we could tell the world who needs a 6.5 when a t .22 works fine. Rant over.
 
The 270 WSM doesn't beat 270 by more than 50 fps with equal bullet weights. Not enough difference to matter.
If SAAMI specs for velocity and pressure have any credibility, you'll believe the WSM version's data showing its bullets of equal weights leave 100 to 150 fps faster than the original one.

I like SAAMI data for velocity and pressure comparisons between cartridges because their tests use fixed standards and procedures to get meaningful data. That ends up with realistic comparisons.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

It's not illegal to load any cartridge to different numbers. Is it done for marketing and/or sales gains?
 
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Real numbers.

The 270 WSM doesn't beat 270 by more than 50 fps with equal bullet weights. Not enough difference to matter.

The 30-06 has been handicapped by anemic factory ammo with the fear that someone will load it into a WW-1 era rifle. With modern handloads a 30-06 will shoot the same bullet weights at the same speed as 7 mag. In equal weights the 7mm bullets are more aerodynamic and will have a very slight edge out past 400 yards.

There is no reason to beat yourself up with recoil and ammo costs. For what you want to do 7-08 or 308 are adequate to at least 400 yards. You can go 30-06 or 270 if you want to. But bullet diameter doesn't kill stuff, putting a good bullet into the vitals kills stuff. There are guys taking elk at 600 yards with 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor.

I only want to add that some states allow .243 for elk and many times grandma put elk in the pot with one, I'm not suggesting that you do such a thing, but if we ignore the marginal argument and accept that an accomplished practical hunter can accomplish this, and also that similar hunters can successfully put moose and brown bear down with a .270 (not just an O'Connor) then we can suggest that a lower recoil 6.5 or 7mm (.264-284) can take elk sufficiently whilst still allowing more range time and faster follow up shots, I recently moved from my (youth decision) 300wm to a 7-08 opting for .243 precision without the extra oomph on the back end. My 300wm will never be for sale but it collects dust more often. 7mm has a better bc so you don't need record mv to be lethal at 3-500 yds (ignoring that cow elk can be called in easily with distress calls as wankerjake illustrated earlier). Pick bullet construction before falling into a "magnum" rut.
 
The following is not a jab at you jmr40.

Yes, and there are guys wounding deer an elk at much less than 600 yds with those same rifles. I am not picking on anyone with my post but a mature elk can absorb a lot of bullet energy and anyone claiming to shoot one in the vitals with consistency at 600 yds is full of crap. No one brags about the misses and wounded animals. A simple and common occurrence is the angle of the animal and/or how it might be standing on a sidehill. Moves the vital are 6 inches sideways or up and down. If a hunter does not care about experimenting with small caliber rounds, I guess that is fine for them, I will continue to call hunters out that act as though they do this kind of shooting with consistent one or two shot kills. Hey just keep shooting until the animal is hit, try tracers so the bullet arc is apparant. I imagine to take this further to the point of ridiculousness, why not an ar in 5.56 at 600 yds with iron sights. Sooner or later one of those little bullets would hit the heart and we could tell the world who needs a 6.5 when a t .22 works fine. Rant over.

I like this very much. I think it illustrates something that anyone with a "what cartridge?" question should ask themselves. Are you a HUNTER or are you a SHOOTER? A good hunter can make a good kill every time. A good shooter can only hit a target. Knowing your distance, trajectory and energy is the easy part. I've guided many "shooters" and in their hands, even a .416 rigby would not suffice for a "good hunt." Thus I believe the cartridge should be blamed less than the person chambering it no matter how small or large it may be. As per OP if you lack the skills to successfully HUNT your quarry, the 7mm magnum will not be large enough to take a cottontail, and on the opposite end, a .223 barnes would be perfect for elk.
 
used the 7mm alot from the 80s and for me it was a pretty hard kicker not much less than a .300 Win Mag. The 175 grain bullet worked well on Elk and caribou for me. I went back to the .308 until I went to Africa again in late 90s and then 2004. in 99 I took a .300 Weatherby and a .375 Weatherby. In 2004 I took my 99 .270 WSM and a light .375 H&H. The .270 WSM had one deer season prior under it's belt and I liked it alot, it recoiled like a .270 Win but was noticably hotter with the 150 grain Noslers than the older win was . I killed every thing (5 species) with one shot with it and that has been the result on deer I have shot with it since. I like the .270 WSM alot and it has retired my 1953 Win model 70 with which I hunted since 63 with. I have no doubt the 3000+ fps 150 Barnes bullets in the .270 WSM will do as well as the 2850 fps 175 GRAIN 7MM does on elk , and for me feels quite a bit less recoil.
 
Llama rather succinctly summed it up. 30-06 will also work well if elk is in the mix. If elk is off the table, ye olde 270 Win does all that is needed.

He said cow elk specifically, why would a .270 not be adequate? Small sample size, but the cow I shot a few weeks ago was shot with my .270 it worked fine, and I'll probably take it over my .30-06 if I make it out to knock over another one this month. I read most of these threads that ask for "rifle suggestions for deer and maybe elk" as "rifle suggestions for deer". As much work and expense that goes into elk hunting, I can't imagine that many people just happen into spur of the moment elk hunts. I've probably spent $1k this year on gas, food, camping expenses etc. going after Muleys and Elk this year alone, and I live near my hunting area (not including the thousands of dollars I've spent to get the right equipment for western/elk hunting).

I'd take a honest look at your actual most common predicted uses and buy accordingly. .30-06, .270 .308, 7mm-08, any of these makes a great deer rifle, and would serve fine for cow elk should an opportunity actually arise.
 
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As for the performance difference between .270 WSM and .270 Win; I've owned and loaded for both, in my experience the real world velocity difference is generally 150 - 200 fps. My .270's have run approximately 3050 fps with 130's, 2950 fps - 3000 fps with 140's and 2920 with 150's. Alternatively, my WSM pushed 130's to 3250 fps and 140's to 3200 fps. I could have gone higher with 130's in the WSM, but accuracy was excellent at 3250.
 
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IMO and in order to make a this a bit more meaningful to you I would start with the bore and bullets suitable for your role and then consider what do you need in terms of casing to put those bullets
where you need them at the speed you need them at the target.
It seems to me a number of calibers could take on that role you described but you also have to consider other factors including size, weight, budget, philosophy of use and whether you are willing to reload or not.
We have very good options in a wide range of casings for almost any caliber from 6mm to 375 solid proven hunters although some options are more popular, versatile and adaptable than others.
Initially anything that is based on a current or previous service cartridge is going to to be very popular for obvious reasons. So the 308 or 30-06 are two of the most popular rounds on the planet including
several of the their offspring cartriges assuring this way availability of brass in original form or necking up or down a number of its descendants.
308W ---> 243r, 260r, 7mm/08r, 338 federal, 358 wichester.
30-06 ---> 6mm-06, 6.5-06, 270w, 280, 30-06, 338-06, 35 whelen.

We could talk about any of the calibers all day but it seems you like the 7mm. Initially and in terms of versatility and availability people are going to look into popular 30 calibers. Also a few 7mm and then less in 270 and 6.5mm if it is for smaller
game or 338 or 358 if it is for larger game. The thing is how far are you going to shoot and how much momentum you want on that target considering you want to properly match bullets to type
of animal and body weight.

I am a big fan of the 30 calibers but I also found that one can do more with less when using the 7mm. The only good reason for the 30 caliber is if one wants to send heavier loads for heavy or even dangerous game
yet one has the capability to work with popular lightest bullets. But in general application the 7mm will do anything any of the calibers below or above will do and do it better in terms of ballistics performance
with less recoil.

The remmag is a great round but maybe you don't need it. I would take a serious look at the 280 or even the 284. There is nothing in the 270, 6.5 nor 30 caliber that will perform better in comparable cases with
the exception of 30 caliber 180-210gr bullets for heavy game and moderate ranges. But you also have 175gr and 180gr 7mm bullets that given the proper load will work really well even with a tad less frontal
section. I think this is truly the beauty of the 7mm. You can load from 120gr bt, 120gr tttsx all the way to 175gr-180gr if you have enough coal and powder that provide a huge range of application whereas
other calibers like 6mm, 6.5 and even 270 might fall short yet you don't need to commit to the heaviest bullets of the 30 caliber and obviously the 338 or above.

I mean the 308, 30-06 and a few others will cover a huge number of roles but in terms of ballistics trajectories and terminal performance several of the 7mm cartriges outperform the comparable casings
in other calibers. It doesn't mean the others are bad calibers, they can be excellent but you will get more versatility from the very same rifle.

So it seems you considered the 7mm already but I wonder if you actually need a magnum. Take a look at the 284 and 280. A lot of people do great with the 7mm/08 that does a lot more things than "white tail"
that seems to be the current marketing trend. The 7mm/08 does everything the 308 does or any of the 6.5 calibers do but better including long range, shooting flatter and further with more momentum on the target.

I am not against the magnums. I am just wondering how far you really need to go and how large the animal because one might do more with less powder and thefore less recoil and expense. Potentially
more accurately.

so 7 remmag yes but also take a look at:
- 280
-284 (perfect for midsize mauser action)
-7mm/08
 
the 7 mag is the better choice 1) more readily available brass and factory ammo 2)the 175 grain bullet will provide better penetration than any common.277 bullet
 
I shoot out to 700 yds on steel most weekends and 850 - 900 once a month. For target shooting I really like 6.5's and slick target bullets. For real life hunting, on the other hand, I think the focus on ultra slick bullets largely amounts to mental masturbation. In reality, for the 0-300yd hunting ranges that almost all game are taken at, there is nothing you can do with a .280 that you can't do with a .30-06 or .270, likewise there is nothing that a 7mm-08 will do in the hunting fields that couldn't also be done with a .308. All of these tiny differences between the major cartridges that we get so wrapped up in really just don't matter at all in the game of killing medium sized animals. Deer and deer sized game are easy to kill.

Buy a rifle in any of the cartridges mentioned that you can afford to shoot a lot, do so, then go forth into the hunting woods and kill. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
 
I'm vaguely planning to get a medium game rifle. Not going to see much use, so I figure it should cover everything I might ever hunt, which means pronghorns to mule deer and *maybe* an elk (ideally a cow since I'm more interested in eating than mounting it). A buddy who fancies the 7mm STW (which is more obscure and more painful than I'm interested in) had talked me up from the .270 Win to the .270 WSM. Looking at the availability of brass and ammo, it seems like the old 7 mm Magnum would be a better choice. Anyone really see any significant difference in the performance of those two? Or any other reason to choose one over the other?
I really like my Kimber in 270 WSM. It is so light, short, and accurate. A real classic in my mind. Its funny, the ruger guys look at it and say: "dang thats a nice ruger!" and the winchester guys look at it and say "thats a nice looking winchester!" I think thats when you know its a nice outfit, well that and when you knock down far away deer!
Only way I would go 7mm is if it were dedicated to mostly game larger than deer. 270 WSM handles the "medium" category extremely well.
 
I agree for the average ranges one could simplify a lot with the 308 or 30-06.
But I got the feeling the original objective includes at least some long shots and perhaps that is why the 7 remmag was considered.
Maybe a magnum is not needed but the 7mm will give a huge range of bullets to shoot very flat w/o getting into heaviest 30 calibers yet
with enough mass and momentum to tackle larger game with authority.
I the magnum is not needed and prefer flatter shooting, the 280 is a pretty forgiving cartridge and anyone who likes the 270 will love the 280.
 
With equal weight bullets trajectories aren't significantly different until about 4-500 yds. I'm not badmouthing the 7mm mag., just sayin'

They're VERY similar cartridges at full pressure. There are however a couple of things I like about the 7mm mag. The higher sectional density at similar weights helps ensure good exit wounds, and prevent deflections due to bone on shoulder shots. The slightly higher velocity (only 100 ft/s or so holding everything equal) also helps a bit with controlled expansion bullets like the A-Frame, which is my favorite hunting bullet bar none.

That said, there's nothing whatsoever wrong with the .30-06.
 
I don't think the sectional density makes a big difference for comparable grain in the 168-175-180gr department.
But the trajectory and striking speed does. The 7mm shoots flatter and brings the ideal 2200-2100fps threshold to 500-600 yards and beyond.
anyway , all this is relative w/o taking about specific animals and bullets in question.
 
The arguments for the .270 Winchester are pretty much the same as my original thinking (when I talked myself UP from a .243 by including the elk). My buddy was complaining that a member of his party this year lost a deer hit with a .270 at 400 yards (his spotter was sure it reacted to the hit) and blamed the .270. Frankly, I suspect a poor shot placement, since I know that it's not as easy as people like to pretend to place shots reliably at that range: my longest shot on a pronghorn was right around 400 yards off a bipod, and I got lucky. I hit it in the neck and dropped it instantly, but I was aiming at the shoulder! And we had done several sessions of practice on prairie dogs that I was feeling pretty good about...after that I am resolved not to take shots over 300 yards unless conditions are better than perfect.

So, in part I am considering the magnums just to conform to the whims of my buddy. Also, I've never used them, but I have been pretty strongly considering using Barnes TSX (for hunting, and lots of cheaper bullets for practice) so I can forget any worries about lead in the meat and turn any bruised meat into sausage, and they seem to be generally considered to punch above their weight if you hit bone. People seem to either love or hate that bullet. From what I can understand about it, it seems like you can reach a sudden threshold where it won't expand on soft tissue, so having a couple hundred extra FPS as insurance would be nice. Maybe that's not really necessary...
 
The 7MM Remington was founded by Wyoming elk guide Les Bowman. The 175 grs. bullet was and is the best choice for elk and moose. Hunters however did not like the recoil and loaded the lighter 145 grs or 160grs. etc. This caused many hunters to lose game and blame the Magnificent 7 MM. Load the 175 for elk and moose and the 160 for Mule Deer and Antelope. :)

http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/...6-cartridge-of-the-month-7mm-remington-magnum
 
I wouldn't mess with the short version of anything. They will eventually fade away. Limit your choice to the 7mm Mag. or the
.270 Winchester. If you are only going to big game hunt with your rifle then get the 7. If you live in the East and do a lot of
woodchuck hunting the .270 is the gun. The more you shoot the better the .270 would be for lots of reasons. Accuracy, recoil
expense etc..
Zeke
 
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