I am guessing you are buying a revolver and not a kit. It will be an Italian revolver. Because it is a completed revolver it will have been to a proof house and proofed with industry standard proof loads. It will be safe with any standard factory load you are willing to fire.
Howdy
That is correct. Every firearm made in Italy is proofed in government proof houses. The standards used are CIP standards, which are slightly more stringent than the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) standards used in the US. So if your Open Top is chambered for 45 Colt it will be safe to shoot with standard 45 Colt ammunition that meets standard SAAMI specs (14,000psi).
Of course developments in machining allow them to handle more powerful cartridges than the .44 Henry it was initially chambered in to my understanding, but the fact remains that it was a design historically meant to handle weaker cartridges than we have access to now. I have heard it mentioned that even regarding modern open top reproductions, it's important to consider limitations posed by their design.
So that leaves me wondering just what I'm going to be able to safely load this repro revolver with. Obviously I'm not talking about running Ruger loads through it or anything like that - I have a nice moderate smokeless load made up for it already, but regarding blackpowder, is it safe to simply fill up the case with powder (say 35 grains of 3F) under a 250 grain bullet as one might for a SAA, or is that going to prove too stout for an open top?
I'm mainly curious because I'm looking for a pretty stout load once I get a hold of a Model P (considering I already have my .38s for light plinking), and it would be nice to use the same load for both guns, even if a full charge of 35 grains is not really historically accurate out of the '72. But, if I'll need a lighter load in regards to safety, so be it. Just curious what you all have found to work best out of the open tops.
A couple of things. It is not developments in machining that make modern revolvers stronger, it is the materials they are made from. Colt was still using iron, not steel for frames and cylinders of the Single Action Army up until about mid 1883. I doubt if they were using anything different for the 1872 Open Top.
You are correct, the Open Top was originally chambered for a version of the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge with a 200 grain bullet and 26 grains of powder (granulation unknown).
Not all Black Powder weighs the same. I have said this many times. I made up this chart quite a few years ago showing how much various Black Powder charges that I was using in different firearms actually weigh. The standard I used for volume was Cubic Centimeters, which is how Lee Dippers are labeled. Lee is a little bit behind the times, CCs are the same as Milliliters.
Note the 2.2CC charge of FFg Schuetzen. That is my standard load for 45 Colt with a 250 grain bullet. That load requires the powder to be compressed about 1/`16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. Yes, you can stuff more powder into a modern solid head 45 Colt case, but I don't see the point. 33.3 grains of FFg Schuetzen has always worked fine for me. Incidentally, if one substitutes FFFg for FFg, everything else remaining the same, you will see an increase of between 60fps -100fps. I have no information on the increase in pressure, but I doubt it amounts to much.
Yes, it is a stout load. This is the recoil with a 2nd Gen Colt.
Interesting, I've always heard not to use lubed wads for risk of contaminating the powder. I use a dry card for my 45-70 loads, and haven't bothered trying to use a wad of any kind for my .38 Specials. Have you had any issues with long term storage? Not that my rounds ever last more than a month anyways!
I gave up putting wads of any type into my Black Powder cartridges long ago. More work than necessary. I only us Big Lube bullets, which have a huge lube groove filled with Black Powder compatible bullet lube.
This photo shows my standard 44-40 Black Powder load on the left and my standard Black Powder 45 Colt load on the right. Next to each cartridge is the Big Lube bullet I use in them, 200 grain Mav-Dutchman for the 44-40 and 250 grain PRS for the 45. Each bullet is shown without lube, showing how much lube they carry, and with lube. I store my BP ammo in standard plastic boxes, bullet down, and some of it has been on the shelf for years. Never any problem with lube migrating into the powder.
My loading notebook says my standard Black Powder 45 Colt ammo averaged 704 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel when I chronographed it many years ago.
I did consider that, but I thought the considerably lighter bullet used in a C&B might alter the equation in some way. Plus, I do think the manual for my Army (most comparable to the '72) lists 30 grains as a max charge, though I could be misremembering and that probably has more to do with capacity than anything.
That is correct. 44 caliber round ball, which weighs in the vicinity of 150 grains or so, will not generate as much pressure as a 200 or 250 grain bullet will with the same powder charge. In addition, a round ball in a Cap & Ball chamber is only retained by a small cross section of the ball where it bears against the chamber wall. A bullet mechanically crimped into a cartridge will have more resistance to moving, so that will also affect the pressure developed.
When they say "stick to cowboy loads", this refers to modern cowboy load ammo which is loaded with smokeless. Generally that refers to Trail Boss, but others use Unique, Winchester, Bullseye, etc which can easily wrap pressures up way above 1000fps velocities. Basically, you can not overcharge a black powder revolver (unless it's a brasser) with 2f or 3f powder either loading loose or with BPCR while using black powder. Not so sure about Triple 7, though so don't quote me on that one.
Some CAS shooters have told me that other members have become quite irritated with them when shooting full-house BP carts because of the excess noise, smoke and muzzle flash, but that sounds like a bunch of party-poopers to me
Yup. I have been criticized for how loud my ammo is, denting targets, and everything else you can imagine. Mostly by guys shooting mouse fart loads that reduce the power of 45 Colt to a mild, almost recoil-less 38 Special.
I seldom shoot full house 45 Colt any anything anymore. I use Schofield brass or you could use filler and load 45 Colt down to Schofield levels with about 28 grains under a 200 grain bullet. No question then on power level for an open top plus in my opinion it's a lot more fun. Plus saves powder and with the Goex situation that may now be the most important aspect to think about.
Schofield brass has a slightly larger rim diameter than 45 Colt. .520 as opposed to .512. Most revolvers that will chamber 45 Colt will also chamber 45 Schofield, but some have the chambers slightly too close together and the rims will overlap. I have no idea if your Open Top would have a problem with the slightly larger rims of 45 Schofield.
Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.
Having said all this, I have no idea if a modern Italian reproduction of the Colt Open Top will hold up well over time fired with full power 45 Colt Black Powder loads.
This original Colt Richards Conversion has an overly large barrel/cylinder gap, I forget exactly how much, probably close to .020 or so. Of course this is an original, made of iron, not steel, and no telling how many rounds have been put through it.
This open top Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army also has a large barrel/cylinder gap. Over the years, something bent slightly, either the frame or the barrel at the bottom near the joint. Also an old gun, made sometime in the early 1870s, with the metals available at the time.
The evidence of this post seems to say there will be no problem with the barrel/cylinder gap on a modern replica opening up over time.
