8 Shots: Enough?

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Great points, GEM. I too generally prefer my AR for HD. Yet not everyone has the option. If I lived in a state with very restrictive gun laws I wouldn't feel one bit undergunned if I was forced to rely on my Mossy 500 as my primary HD/zombie gun. It's reliable, easy to shoot well and can use a wide variety of ammo. I initially bought it before a trip out west, hiking and camping in MT where there are some big bears. It occurred to me that the largest sidearm I had was a 9mm. My initial thought was to maybe pick up a .44 Mag but I didn't want to drop $800 on something I almost certainly wouldn't use after the trip. Plus, if I had to shoot a charging bear I didn't like my chances given a few weeks to practice after not having used big bore wheelies in about 20 years. But a bit of practice with the 500 (along with growing up using pump shotguns a lot) it was pretty easy to make snap shots on pretty small targets with Brennekke slugs. Never needed to fend off a bear luckily but I felt a lot better with the Mossberg sitting in my lap.

For my previous job I took an apt for the first time in 25 years (about all I could find, not a lot of places for rent there). Given the construction and layout of neighbors and other homes I felt that the shotgun was a better choice than the AR. I've seen all the videos and read all the tests and I know that well chosen 5.56 ammo isn't any worse than a 9mm for over penetration but given the fields of fire I had to work with the 12 ga with 00 Buck seemed like a better option. Plus, my place was an upper with only one entrance (is that legal?) right at the top of the stairs. I had a sturdy door to hide behind and a fatal funnel to defend that could probably be held just fine with six rounds of Federal Buckshot.
 
I wouldn't add any more to the tube of an 1100. They can be sensitive to shell surge during recoil if the mass of the shells becomes too much for the mag tube spring to handle.


If it is working well with a capacity of 8, I think that is a pretty good balance of capacity and length for a house gun.
 
Guys, I've since come to my senses and have decided to shelve the 1100 and instead use a Mossberg M590A1 with 18 inch barrel and six-shot tube (it's a new offering from Mossberg) with a Vang Comp sidesaddle.

50774_590_A1_7_Shot_GRings.png
I technically don't own the shotgun yet... have to buy it LOL! But it should be an excellent balance of length, weight, and firepower. I want to get a Magpul MOE stock set for it to decrease the length of pull, it was too long on my old M590A1. Also looking to put an Elzetta shotgun light and mount on it and maybe a sling.
 
I never felt a Tacti-cool 9 round shotgun with a bunch of BS hanging off of it was necessary for home defense. If I need more than 5 rounds at that distance, it's probably going to be a really bad day IMO

I have an older standard 870 patrol shotgun with a stock 4 round magazine. It's got some nice worn in blonde furniture and a lot of character. I keep it loaded with 3" size 4 lead shot.

Have you ever seen what a duck load will do to a deer from less than 20 feet? It will blow a golf ball sized hole into their chest cavity about 5-6 inches deep. This tends to drop old Bambi just as fast as a high powered rifle. Don'task me how I know this............
 
That load of #4 shot act's just like a meat grinder!!

There is no surgeon on earth that can put any BG back together again after a load like that.
 
jaguarxk120 said:
That load of #4 shot act's just like a meat grinder!!

There is no surgeon on earth that can put any BG back together again after a load like that.
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Yeah, I had some guy at work try and tell me that any shot smaller than single 0 buck lacks the penetration to be an effective man stopper. He tried to tell me that good defense ammo in any service caliber would be far more effective than a "3 magnum duck load even from living room distances.....lol

I think a lot of people don't realize that even out of a short barreled shotgun, heavy game loads still hold together pretty tight even at 30 feet or so. So many people seem to think you can't miss with a shotgun, and it's simply not even remotely true. How this guy thinks any 9mm ammo packs the stopping power of a of a heavy 12 gauge game load is just silly. These loads pack as much kinetic energy as a 30-06. Even if one was wearing a thick heavy jacket that reduced penetration even more, at close rage the energy alone would still end a fight in most scenarios.

That's an ounce and a half of lead moving 1300 feet per second = good night
 
Optimal load is #1BK at 1250fps which thankfully is about all one can get in 16ga from Winchester or Federal (Rio and Aguila probably offer more choices in 16ga). Luckily Winchester also offers 1 buck at same velocity in 12ga often found at some Walmarts.
 
Good point about the restrictive states. I've got a Winchester 1300 as a HD shotgun and if came to that - it's just fine. Lately, it's a moot point. My right shoulder is out of commission due to a car wreck (rear ended - I'll skip the violin story) so it's been one handed Glock shooting for me. Doc says that's ok but shouldering a long arm that goes boom - nope. BTW, a friend of mine was doing a military and police match and had to shoot his 12 gauge under a car. He didn't get a good weld on the gun in the rush (duh) and dislocated his clavicle. Ouch.
 
PabloJ said:
Optimal load is #1BK at 1250fps which thankfully is about all one can get in 16ga from Winchester or Federal (Rio and Aguila probably offer more choices in 16ga). Luckily Winchester also offers 1 buck at same velocity in 12ga often found at some Walmarts.
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Where did you get those numbers if you don't mind me asking? One of the instructors at my local indoor range says that
Size 4 buck is what a lot of the "so called experts" will tell you is optimal these days for home defense, but he likes plain old 00 buck in the lower velocity flavor. That size 4 buck is pretty pricey for the good stuff.

Inside an average sized home, I don't think it really matters as long as it's high brass and at least a small game load. My upbringing was about as redneck as it gets, so I've seen some pretty disgusting poaching with bird shot. I don't doubt its effectiveness at short ranges at all. In an actual combat situation where ranges become longer than a living room, any type of bird shot has no place though.
 
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bangbang01 said:
Yeah, I had some guy at work try and tell me that any shot smaller than single 0 buck lacks the penetration to be an effective man stopper. He tried to tell me that good defense ammo in any service caliber would be far more effective than a "3 magnum duck load even from living room distances.....lol

I think a lot of people don't realize that even out of a short barreled shotgun, heavy game loads still hold together pretty tight even at 30 feet or so. So many people seem to think you can't miss with a shotgun, and it's simply not even remotely true. How this guy thinks any 9mm ammo packs the stopping power of a of a heavy 12 gauge game load is just silly. These loads pack as much kinetic energy as a 30-06. Even if one was wearing a thick heavy jacket that reduced penetration even more, at close rage the energy alone would still end a fight in most scenarios.

That's an ounce and a half of lead moving 1300 feet per second = good night
Click to expand...

You are most correct about suppositions of some folks who think one cannot miss with a shotgun. At HD ranges it may be "point and shoot" but one had better be pointing at the correct spot.

An ounce and a half of lead at that velocity shot into center of mass even into a very heavy jacket/coat will produce enough blunt trauma force to knock the perp down wondering what hit him, and that is enough time to reload and gain the advantage. We are only talking about a matter feet inside a domicile, not several yards.

Those folks must have listened to Joe Biden insofar as double barrel shotguns with no training.

The largest slug I am aware of for a 9mm (9x19) is 147 grains and those are slow rounds. Whomever in favor wants to do a 9mm instead of a shotshell load, be my guest.

I am 65 and don't wield a shotgun so well these days, but I rely on a 1911 .45 ACP single-stack with HP rounds and two spare loaded mags, and an SP101 5 round + speed loader with .38 +P HP ammo. At my age it is what I can do. I have not had to do that in an HD situation yet.

The shotgun is still the better HD weapon.

Jim
 
Not to be a buzz-kill, OP, but here's a thought.

Have you ever fired a shotgun inside a small building, like a house? The
cure may be worse than the disease...
 
bangbang01 said:
Where did you get those numbers if you don't mind me asking? One of the instructors at my local indoor range says that
Size 4 buck is what a lot of the "so called experts" will tell you is optimal these days for home defense, but he likes plain old 00 buck in the lower velocity flavor. That size 4 buck is pretty pricey for the good stuff.
Click to expand...

Working from memory but I'm pretty sure grey-boxed Winchester 2&3/4" 12ga OO is 1325fps while #1 is 1250fps.
 
bangbang01 said:
These loads pack as much kinetic energy as a 30-06. Even if one was wearing a thick heavy jacket that reduced penetration even more, at close rage the energy alone would still end a fight in most scenarios.

That's an ounce and a half of lead moving 1300 feet per second = good night
Click to expand...

They're not even close to the KE of an ought-six. Maybe half the energy.
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
They're not even close to the KE of an ought-six. Maybe half the energy.
Click to expand...

Well let's do the math genius

The 3" ammo I currently have in my 870 is packing 1.5 ounces of size 4 lead shot rated at 1,330 FPS
1.5 ounces is 656.25 grains. 656.25 grains at 1,330 FPS = 2,578 ft lbs of energy

The match grade 30-06 ammo I have in my safe right now is pushing a 165 grain bullet at 2,750 FPS
165 grains at 2,750 fps = 2,771 ft lbs

We're talking a about a difference of less than 200 ft lbs. Now don't you feel silly?....... I kid I kid

Obviously the 30-06 can be loaded hotter, but they also make far more stout magnum shotgun loads.
Anyways, many large 12 gauge shotgun loads when fired up close and personal are comparable to the old ought six in regards to kinetic energy.
 
Cooldill said:
Ah... what do you recommend, then?
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Well, either serious ear protection, or a pistol. A pistol would be easier to maneuver, indoors. Caliber and type are up to you,
but magnum rounds present the same issues.

30.06 would be a major over-penetration issue, not to mention the noise and pressure
on the eardrums. The 150 grain ball-type military issue is rated to penetrate a 16" Oak tree trunk,
then a galvanized pail of water, both sides, at 100 yards. Shotgun spreads the energy
over a much larger area, and is far less of a penetration hazard.
 
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bangbang01 said:
Well let's do the math genius

The 3" ammo I currently have in my 870 is packing 1.5 ounces of size 4 lead shot rated at 1,330 FPS
1.5 ounces is 656.25 grains. 656.25 grains at 1,330 FPS = 2,578 ft lbs of energy
Click to expand...

If that's a real spec then it's pretty smokin' hot stuff. I've never come across any 12 ga that potent but if you say so I'll believe you, just never saw 3" shells with that kind of oomph.:)
 
Read through all the posts on this topic and wonder how many that posted have ever gone into bad places with a shotgun and actually used it when it was all on the line....

If you ever saw just how bad the damage to a human torso a standard load of 00buck causes (basic nine pellet 00buck in a 2 3/4" round) you'd never want anything else... At close quarter distances (15 meters or less) it's a fight ender with a solid center of mass hit - that's why I never fretted about only having four in the tube and one in the chamber... Mine was always backed up by an elastic butt cuff with four or five additional rounds, ready to go (and my current home defense popper is set up no differently). Since the 00buck is a penetrating round (you can expect a good 18" penetration after impact at close quarters) I won't be taking the shot unless I'm certain of the background.

The only additional I can add is that I always advised my officers to aim just a bit low out on the street - that will serve you well in a high stress moment when your heart is sitting just under your chin - and you're wishing you were somewhere else...
 
Cooldill said:
Guys, I've since come to my senses and have decided to shelve the 1100 and instead use a Mossberg M590A1 with 18 inch barrel and six-shot tube (it's a new offering from Mossberg) with a Vang Comp sidesaddle.

View attachment 773512
I technically don't own the shotgun yet... have to buy it LOL! But it should be an excellent balance of length, weight, and firepower. I want to get a Magpul MOE stock set for it to decrease the length of pull, it was too long on my old M590A1. Also looking to put an Elzetta shotgun light and mount on it and maybe a sling.
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of the 870 Remington but as fate would have it right now my only shotgun is a Mossberg 500 nickle/Marine Coat. It's not really "tactical" like the one you pictured but it does wear a Surefire X300 Ultra WMO and a sling. I'll probably get the Magpul stock for it eventually. If I do ever switch shotties for HD I'll either get a Mossberg Thunder Ranch Edition or one of the magazine fed 870s (provided they prove reliable- not gonna jump on that bandwagon til I hear a few songs!).
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
If that's a real spec then it's pretty smokin' hot stuff. I've never come across any 12 ga that potent but if you say so I'll believe you, just never saw 3" shells with that kind of oomph.:)
Click to expand...
They make nitro turkey and goose loads that are pushing just under 2 ounces of bb size shot at similar velocity. We're talking like 3,000 ft lbs. The stuff would literally take entire limbs off at close ranges.
 
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