8mm mauser from 30-06 brass

[tahoe2]

I ran a few cases of 06 brass through my 8x57 FL sizing die but the shoulder was still too far forward, the rounds would chamber but the bolt won't turn down. Am I wasting my time ??
I've heard of people doing this (as I have a couple of hundred 06 brass and no rifle to go with it), do I need a special sizing die ??

 

[b money]

To be totally honest I dont have a clue, I thought(key word) that the two heads are different size but I could easily be wrong. In any case if you have a few hundred 30-06 why don't you save your self some time and effort and for a few bucks in shipping trade the 06 brass even up on the WTS/WTT board for the correct 8mm? I'm sure people would be willing to do so for the amount involved.

 

[evan price]

RCBS makes a form & trim die to get 8mm Mauser from 30-06 brass. Just install it in the press, resize the 30-06 brass in the die, and use a fine tooth hacksaw or the like to saw off whatever sticks up over the top of the die. The body of the die is hardened so as to not be damaged by the saw. I use a small model-makers bow saw with a fine tooth blade. Works like a treat. People used to wonder where I ever got Lake City 8mm brass. I told them it was a special run for the CIA.

(I use military 30-06 so as to not have a confusing headstamp issue, military brass doesn't have the caliber headstamped)

 

[EMC45]

I run mine through a regular RCBS die and then use a pipe cutter to trim the excess neck. I re-run them through the sizer and final trim on my RCBS case trimmer. Deburr and you are in business.

 

[donkee]

I do the same with mil brass using a small pipe cutter. I have a couple thousand 30-06 spent cases from when I practiced with the Garands more. Too bad CMP is running out and it is more expensive.

 

[homatok]

You said you ran the 06 through an 8mm die and while it goes into the rifle the bolt won't close? Did you trim it after sizing?

My book on cartridge conversions says size in an 8x57 die and trim to 2.23".
8x57 (8mm) rim diameter-.470" /06 rim diameter-.469"
8mm head diameter-.467" /06 head diameter-.466"
8mm rim thickness-.048" /06 rim thickness-.048"
8mm length to shldr-1.82" /06 length to shldr-1.942"
8mm shldr diameter-.433" /06 shldr diameter-.433"
8mm neck diameter-.355" /06 neck diameter-.336"
8mm case length-2.237" /06 case length-2.494"
8mm AOL-3.17" /06 OAL-3.33"

 

[Elkins45]

^^^^^ I hate to ask, but it's a reasonable question. I've converted 30-06 to 8mm and you end up with WAY too much neck.

Maybe the problem isn't that the shoulder isn't far enough back, maybe it's that the case mouth is too far forward (case too long). Either would prevent it from chambering. Do the shoulders appear visibly too far forward?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Why not simply run a .30-06 chambering reamer into your 8mm and produce an 8mm-06, a really great cartridge.

 

[tahoe2]

homatok & Elkins

I actually cut & deburred before & trimmed to actual length and deburred after, with a case length trim gauge (Lee). I have never tried to convert brass before. I then checked them with factory brass before I loaded them. So I will pull the bullets and try again, I only did 10 rounds the first time out. I did notice a 30-06 to 8mm mauser die from RCBS @ Midway, thinking about it.

 

[GLOOB]

Why not simply run a .30-06 chambering reamer into your 8mm and produce an 8mm-06, a really great cartridge.

Well, maybe it's because that would leave him in the same predicament - a few hundred 8x57 cases and no rifle to shoot it out of. And as difficult as it might be to turn 30-06 into 8x57, I bet it's even harder to turn 8x57 into 8mm-06!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, as I said, to turn an 8X57 into an 8mm-06 simply takes running a .30-06 chamberinr reamer into an 8X57 chamber. From then on, it's merely a matter of expanding .30-06 necks a bit -- no forming, cutting and so on.

 

[Curator]

tahoe2,

I have had this problem with cases formed for two Yugoslavian 8mm Mausers where before, .30-06 cartridges simply sized in the 8mm full length sizing die and trimmed fit fine in my German M98s. I solved it by filing the top surface of the shell holder down by about .010". This allowed the case to go into the die an additional .010 and it made all the difference. Shells so sized would chamber easily after trimming to correct length.

 

[tahoe2]

thanks Curator, I'll try that!

 

[highlander 5]

To trim the excess brass a sawsall with a fine tooth blade it's much quicker. Years ago I had a 7mm Mauser and couldn't find the correct brass for it but i could find 'o6 brass by the bucket full. Got a file and trim die and after a few hours 7 mm Mauser brass.

 

[GLOOB]

Actually, as I said, to turn an 8X57 into an 8mm-06 simply takes running a .30-06 chamberinr reamer into an 8X57 chamber. From then on, it's merely a matter of expanding .30-06 necks a bit -- no forming, cutting and so on.

I understand that. I was referring to the difficulty of turning the 8x57 brass that he currently owns into 8mm-06. That ain't gonna happen.

The way I'm reading it, the OP has some 06 cases and nothing to shoot them out of. As opposed to the predicament of having an 8x57 rifle and nothing to shoot out of it.

 

[fguffey]

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I have a form/trim die for most of the chambers I load for. When purchasing 30/06 cases there is not a down side, most of what I shoot can be formed from 30/06 cases, I have made purchases of 30/06 for .01 cent each, 1,400 cases for $14.00. New unfired match cases from Pat’s Reloading for as little .08 cents each up. There is no way 100 cases will cost me more than $8.00 for 100 cases. 100 cases pay for the forming die. Most 8mm57 chambers generous necks, the 30/06 when formed to 8mm57 tighten the necks.

Trimming with a forming die? I use the man tool, the hack saw, When trimming 100 8mm57 cases from 30/06 cases 25.8” of brass must be trimmed, after trimming with the hack saw I finish with a file, then there is the aircraft countersink, not necessary warring out the counter sink, the logic would seem to cut the neck with the counter sink, the counter sink is design to cut a hole with support on the outside, the counter sink will expand the neck, when run to the bottom near the neck if, when the die is lowered the expanded neck will pop off.

Annealing: 8mm57 chamber necks are generous, mdaning when the case is fired the neck expands as much as .012".

F. Guffey

 

[Kp321]

Vern,
You have to use an 8mm-06 reamer, not 30-06. The 30-06 reamer would not cut the neck or throat areas.

 

[Elkins45]

I actually cut & deburred before & trimmed to actual length and deburred after, with a case length trim gauge (Lee). I have never tried to convert brass before. I then checked them with factory brass before I loaded them. So I will pull the bullets and try again, I only did 10 rounds the first time out. I did notice a 30-06 to 8mm mauser die from RCBS @ Midway, thinking about it.

You really shouldn't need a special die. Are you butting the shell holder all the way up against the die? If you are and they still won't fit then you might consider the previous suggestion of filing down a shell holder so you can ram it up in there just a it farther.

Do your formed cases look noticeably different than factory 8X57 brass?

 

[fguffey]

You really shouldn't need a special die. Are you butting the shell holder all the way up against the die? If you are and they still won't fit then you might consider the previous suggestion of filing down a shell holder so you can ram it up in there just a it farther.

Do your formed cases look noticeably different than factory 8X57 brass?
__________________

Tahoe2, filling down a shell holder .010” and do what with it? For anyone that has formed 30/06 cases to 8mm57, 7mm57, 308 Winchester etc., etc., and on and on knows the problem is not at the bottom of the die or above the deck of the shell hold, case formers know the problem is at the shoulder/neck juncture, the full length size die is designed to full length size, ‘I know it sounds cute to say bump as in making an attempt to convenes someone they know what they are talking about, but that is not what happens, the shoulder is not bumped. Think of wreck as in the effect a collision has on your auto, the wreck changes the appearance and that is the effect the forming die has on the case when formed. The forming die is designed to erase the shoulder, the shoulder of the 30/06 case does not move, part of the neck becomes part of the shoulder of the 8mm57 case and the case body of the 30/06 becomes part of the shoulder, the shoulder on the newly formed 8mm57 case is new, again the shoulder did not move, it was erased.

I have forming dies, 100 8mm57 cases will never cost me more than .08 cents each, that is what I paid for the 30/06 cases from Pat’s reloading, new/unfired LC cases. Then there was that time in Buckhorn NC, I purchased 1,400 30/06 cases for .01 each, that was $14.00 for 1,400 cases.

8mm57 to 8mm/06, there is nothing suspect about about the 8mm/06, I have the reamer, I have the dies.

The forming die is designed to erase the shoulder, not likely something a smith and or reloader would do but it is possible to scribe lines on a case before forming at the neck/shoulder juncture and the case body/shoulder juncture, after forming the scribed lines will indicate the original position of the two junctures. Then there are those that claim the case runs to the front of the chamber to brace itself for the firing pin strike. Had Hatcher scribed his 30/06 cases before he chambered them in his modified +.080 chamber he would have had to ask himself, “SELF!” “WHAT CAUSED THIS?” Hatcher’s cases die not run to the front of the chamber. Hatcher’s shoulder was erased and became part of the case body, part of his neck became part of the shoulder, so it goes with case forming.

Again, if I had one forming die it would be a 308 Winchester forming die, the 308 Winchester forming die is not for reloaders that insist on screwing the die down to the shell holder.

F. Guffey

 

[aka108]

You can also form 7.65 Argentine using either 30-06 or 8mm cases. Add some 303 bullets and you can take those S. American contract Mausers to the range and shoot to you hearts content and not break the bank.

 

[tahoe2]

fguffy

so are you suggesting that a forming die (30-06 to 8x57) actually creates the new shoulder properly, as compared to a 8mm FL sizing die ( which does not re-create the shoulder) that full length sizes the exterior of the case to the shoulder as well as the neck. I'm just trying to utilize some brass and save a couple of bucks. Also is nickel brass more difficult to reform?
my LGS's don't stock 8mm mauser brass and internet stores are often out of stock, so since I had the 06 brass on hand I thought I would give it a try.

As for those suggesting re-chambering my guns, I don't want to alter them, I want to shoot them!! One is a 1941 German K98 in battle dress and a Yugo M48 in battle dress. I want to keep them original, so thanks, but no thanks !!

 

[rondog]

Then of course, you can also use .30-06 or 8 x 57mm to make 7.7 Jap for your Arisaka.....There was a tutorial on the old Surplus Rifles forum (RIP) that showed using a small tubing cutter, like for brake lines, to trim off about 1/4" from the .30-06 cases.

Also is nickel brass more difficult to reform?

I'm certainly no expert, and have never done this, but my small knowledge of metallurgy tells me this is probably a bad idea. The nickel is plating that's applied to the brass, so any reforming of the brass would likely break that plating bond and make it flake off. The plating may also change the molecular structure of the brass some as well.

I do know that trying bend or reshape motorcycle parts that have been chromed, like handlebars or exhaust pipes, never ends well.

 

[fguffey]

“so are you suggesting that a forming die (30-06 to 8x57) actually creates the new shoulder properly, as compared to a 8mm FL sizing die ( which does not re-create the shoulder) that full length sizes the exterior of the case to the shoulder as well as the neck. I'm just trying to utilize some brass and save a couple of bucks. Also is nickel brass more difficult to reform?”

“my LGS's don't stock 8mm mauser brass and internet stores are often out of stock, so since I had the 06 brass on hand I thought I would give it a try”

RCBS Special order catalog: 8mm57 from 30/06 trim/form die #15965 Group A Instructions, after forming full length size.

Because reloaders are so conditioned to follow instructions they full length size, I ask “WHY!?” and they say “I don’t know” ME? If I am going to form a case for my chamber I am going to form it so it fits the chamber from the face to the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, my favorite case is the 280 Remington it is longer than the 30/06 from the head of the case to its shoulder, when forming 30/06 cases from 280 Remington cases I can not miss, I have 51 options, with a chamber than is +.016 too long between the bolt face to the shoulder. When forming the 280 Remington case to 30/06 I adjust the die off the shell holder .014”.

as opposed to

270 Winchester from 30/06 Rule number *1, use 270 Winchester full length sizer die.

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/2010_SpecialOrder.pdf

I am saying the forming die is designed to form the case first, then the formed case must be sized with the full length sizing die. Formed cases will not chamber, again after forming the case with the forming die the case must be full length sized??? For the reloader that knows the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the chambers shoulder the formed case can be sized to fit the chamber.

Again, I have a 30/06 chamber that is longer from the bolt face to the shoulder than a minimum length/full length sized case by .016” I form 280 Remington cases with a 30/06 die (or a 30/06 form/trim die) by adjusting the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die .014”, again the finial sizing must be with the die that matches the chamber.

It is assumed the shoulder is bumped when sized, again, I said the forming die erases the shoulder, nothing changes when a full length sizer die is used as a forming die, the shoulder is erased, the shoulder is erased and becomes part of the neck, part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder. the new shoulder is not the same shoulder the case started with, if ‘bump is used to describe something that is not understood when forming and or sizing it is OK with me, then someone could make up a boring story that describes the moment when bumping stops and forming begins.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

“Also is nickel brass more difficult to reform?”

You ask a question, most answers go something like you bet, no problem, right away and no ‘problemo’. When going from 30/06 to 338/06 or 35 Whelen expect the necks to split on 4 out of 10 attempts, that does not mean the 6 that did not split were successfully necked-up when using nickel cases. When using new and or once fired brass 280 Remington cases the success rate is 10 out of 10. Not a problem but when necking up a case from 30 cal. to .33” or .35” the case neck shortens as much as .030”.

The you bet, no problem etc., thing. Forming is a work out for brass, outside of reloading forums it is recommended the case be annealed below/down to the new location of the new shoulder, with annealing the success
rate increases. No one has the time but it is a bad habit to form 7mm57/257 Roberts etc., cases from 30/06 cases then load and store the ammo unless the cases have been annealed, the unsuccess ‘ful’ rate can be 100%, the problem caused by bad baits, split necks, without firing the case or when the case is fired.

Then there is the forming die and success rate. Without forming the cases with the forming die dents, folds and creases appear at the shoulder, and the you bet, no problem etc group will say, “No Problemo”, when fired the folds and creases will disappear, I was at the range with cases that had dents, folds and creases, the shooter next to me said “Tell me you are not going to shoot those” and I said “I am not going to shoot those” then, I shot them, the shooter next to me said “I thought you said you were not going to shoot those” then I reminded him I did as he ask, he instructed me to ‘say’ and I did as he ask. The dents folds and creases did not disappear, the gap closed, the fold could be seen inside the case and no, I was not using reduced loads.

Anyhow, I have forming dies, I stopped by for a visit with one of the manufacturers of dies and presses, it was not about putting a face to the voice, anyhow, I ask a question about forming, his answer started with “All you gotta do is etc., etc.. First I had a question about the difference in length between the 30/06 and 6.5mm53 BM, I suggested trimming 29”++ from 100 cases would ware out my trimmer, after another question I ask him if he had ever formed 7.65mm53 BM cases from 30/06 cases and his answer was ‘no’.

The Mauser chambers have generous necks, the Mauser chamber can benefit from cases with thick necks, back to work hardened brass, work hardened brass splits/cracks at the neck, I suggest loading and firing with little time between loading and firing, there is no promise the neck will not split when fired, there is no promise the neck will not split after loading during storing.

In the perfect world new cases are used when forming, you have 30/06 cases you want to form to 8mm57, I do not know if your 30/06 cases are work hardened.

F. Guffey

 

[tahoe2]

thanks for all the info, will try again and see what works.