9 vs .38Spec?
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rpenmanparker
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You gonna bet on doing that every time? What about something that will take care of your mistakes?
OneFreeTexan
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Off topic, slightly.....however, a 32 H&R Magnum which has very low recoil, so therefore easier to hold on target can do some damage.
Zaydok Allen
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Seems to me the 9mm is very capable and performs nicely with modern ammo. Seems to have the edge.
38 Special has been making stuff dead for a long time though so hit your target somewhere good and both will probably work just fine.
38 Special has been making stuff dead for a long time though so hit your target somewhere good and both will probably work just fine.
fordtrucks
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Avoid the caliber war! Carry both!
Labguy47
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True but we also need to compare apples to apples and not oranges. You don’t hear about people doing the moonclip with a 38 but you do with a 357.
OP:
Summary:
Figure out what your objectives are for the gun & cartridge combinations you have or desire. If they include 4-legged beasts on the large-ish side, get the .38spl, as its ability to shoot heavy full & semi-wadcutters gets you better, straighter penetration than 9mm FMJ. My minimalist woods guns are J-frame snubbies stoked with warm cast lead wadcutters and semi-wadcutters. They also serve fine vs 2-legged varmints with the same loads, super-fancy new JHPs, or target wadcutters.
Otherwise, just re-read JohnKSa's post.
Summary:
Figure out what your objectives are for the gun & cartridge combinations you have or desire. If they include 4-legged beasts on the large-ish side, get the .38spl, as its ability to shoot heavy full & semi-wadcutters gets you better, straighter penetration than 9mm FMJ. My minimalist woods guns are J-frame snubbies stoked with warm cast lead wadcutters and semi-wadcutters. They also serve fine vs 2-legged varmints with the same loads, super-fancy new JHPs, or target wadcutters.
Otherwise, just re-read JohnKSa's post.
481
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Thanks to the advances in ammo design over last twenty or thirty years, most definitely. Now I am just waiting for feasible pocket-sized particle-beam weapon.
rpenmanparker
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I’m not sure what you just summarized except your own opinion. I don’t care how many legs your target has. .38 Special is inferior to 9mm. Heavier and heavier just means slower and slower. It also means worse recoil at the same muzzle energy as 9mm, a characteristic for which .38 Special has long been criticized. .38 Special is a nostalgic relic. As I said earlier, you don’t pick your ammo on the basis of nostalgia. Not if you want positive results that are competitive on the current scene.
jar
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I will just give my opinion based on my own experience.
The first thing to decide is what you want this gun for and what size is correct for that need. You do not want to carry a 6 inch barreled .38 Special, BERETTA 92 or GLOCK 17 9m.m. or full size 1911 concealed. They are heavy and both just too big. They are fine for home defense where the longer barrel improves you stopping power over a short barreled gun and the larger ammo capacity can save your life. If you want a car gun, you can use the above, but will find it easier to conceal your weapon if it is a more compact gun like the SIG 225/228/229, GLOCK 19 or SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact. I mention these guns because I have a lot of experience with them and can rely on any or all of them.
On duty, I carry a .40 S&W H&K P2000. No choice there!
Off duty, I usually go for a small gun like the GLOCK model 42, if I am not dressed to concealed anything larger. Otherwise, a GLOCK 17 (maybe, it is also large, but light) or a SIG 232 or BERETTA 92 Compact or 8000L model, SIG 225 or a SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD Sub Compact (a good all around choice).
Forget about the 9m.m. vs .38 Special power argument. Way to many law enforcement agencies have enough experience to know which one to go with and it is the 9m.m. The 9m.m. has higher velocity and the bullet is more likely to expand and even the much hyped +P+ .38 Special loads were not especially effective. My agency dropped them 30 years ago and switched to the .357 magnum.
The advantage of using a semi-auto is greater ammo capacity, even a compact, single stack 9m.m. will give you 7 rounds or more. If you want a really compact .38 Special, you are down to 5 rounds. A 6 shot .38 Special is bulkier and harder to conceal.
So the 9m.m. has a real advantage in power as compact, snubnose (read 2 inch barrels) revolvers are just too far down the velocity curve. Very few .38 Special, even +P rounds, can reach a 1,000 fps (feet per second). Almost all 9m.m. 115 or 124 grain ammo will be going faster than 1,000 fps and many will be going 100 to 200 fps faster.
I know a lot of shooters place their faith in the FBI load because of its heavy bullet, but it kicks HARD in a 1 pound revolver and velocity is down about 800 fps or even lower for some rounds. Remember, most police carried 4 inch revolvers in .38 Special and it makes a real difference in the bullets velocity and effectiveness.
If you buy boutique ammo that can blast out the muzzle of a 2 inch at 1,000 fps, your recoil is MUCH HEAVIER. It may not bother some, but it was much more than I liked and that recoil effects your recovery time between shots and DOES NOT MAKE YOU WANT TO PRACTIVE MORE OFTEN!
I stick with 125 to 130 grain ammo in +P loads for my S&W model 36 and CHARTER ARMS Undercover, but I usually carry a semi-auto when off duty.
If you want to carry a revolver and will holster it, then you should consider a 4 inch barrel and get a .357 magnum, even a 5 shot one. With 110 grain jhp ammo, it is a real, documented improvement in stopping power over any .38 Special load, whether +P or +P+, no matter how heavy the bullet.
One last thing. If you buy a quality semi-auto, it will be just as reliable as a revolver. I say this from personally seeing failures on Smith & Wesson, Ruger and Colt revolvers that were all supposed to be more reliable than any semi-auto. Tell that to GLOCK owners!
Get whichever fits your need and shoots the best for you and choose a proven round and practice, practice and then practice some more. Even consider getting some training.
Good luck with your choice.
Jim
The first thing to decide is what you want this gun for and what size is correct for that need. You do not want to carry a 6 inch barreled .38 Special, BERETTA 92 or GLOCK 17 9m.m. or full size 1911 concealed. They are heavy and both just too big. They are fine for home defense where the longer barrel improves you stopping power over a short barreled gun and the larger ammo capacity can save your life. If you want a car gun, you can use the above, but will find it easier to conceal your weapon if it is a more compact gun like the SIG 225/228/229, GLOCK 19 or SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact. I mention these guns because I have a lot of experience with them and can rely on any or all of them.
On duty, I carry a .40 S&W H&K P2000. No choice there!
Off duty, I usually go for a small gun like the GLOCK model 42, if I am not dressed to concealed anything larger. Otherwise, a GLOCK 17 (maybe, it is also large, but light) or a SIG 232 or BERETTA 92 Compact or 8000L model, SIG 225 or a SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD Sub Compact (a good all around choice).
Forget about the 9m.m. vs .38 Special power argument. Way to many law enforcement agencies have enough experience to know which one to go with and it is the 9m.m. The 9m.m. has higher velocity and the bullet is more likely to expand and even the much hyped +P+ .38 Special loads were not especially effective. My agency dropped them 30 years ago and switched to the .357 magnum.
The advantage of using a semi-auto is greater ammo capacity, even a compact, single stack 9m.m. will give you 7 rounds or more. If you want a really compact .38 Special, you are down to 5 rounds. A 6 shot .38 Special is bulkier and harder to conceal.
So the 9m.m. has a real advantage in power as compact, snubnose (read 2 inch barrels) revolvers are just too far down the velocity curve. Very few .38 Special, even +P rounds, can reach a 1,000 fps (feet per second). Almost all 9m.m. 115 or 124 grain ammo will be going faster than 1,000 fps and many will be going 100 to 200 fps faster.
I know a lot of shooters place their faith in the FBI load because of its heavy bullet, but it kicks HARD in a 1 pound revolver and velocity is down about 800 fps or even lower for some rounds. Remember, most police carried 4 inch revolvers in .38 Special and it makes a real difference in the bullets velocity and effectiveness.
If you buy boutique ammo that can blast out the muzzle of a 2 inch at 1,000 fps, your recoil is MUCH HEAVIER. It may not bother some, but it was much more than I liked and that recoil effects your recovery time between shots and DOES NOT MAKE YOU WANT TO PRACTIVE MORE OFTEN!
I stick with 125 to 130 grain ammo in +P loads for my S&W model 36 and CHARTER ARMS Undercover, but I usually carry a semi-auto when off duty.
If you want to carry a revolver and will holster it, then you should consider a 4 inch barrel and get a .357 magnum, even a 5 shot one. With 110 grain jhp ammo, it is a real, documented improvement in stopping power over any .38 Special load, whether +P or +P+, no matter how heavy the bullet.
One last thing. If you buy a quality semi-auto, it will be just as reliable as a revolver. I say this from personally seeing failures on Smith & Wesson, Ruger and Colt revolvers that were all supposed to be more reliable than any semi-auto. Tell that to GLOCK owners!
Get whichever fits your need and shoots the best for you and choose a proven round and practice, practice and then practice some more. Even consider getting some training.
Good luck with your choice.
Jim
"How many times da I have to tell ya...the right tool for the right job!"
----Scotty, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Inferior in what way for what purpose? That is why I inquired about the OP's objectives. The objective desired ought to influence the means. For some objectives, 9mm is superior. For others .38spl.
Never done much handgun hunting i take it? Or read up on effective handgun projectiles versus 4 legged critters when they must be dispatched in a timely manner?
Given that it is largely a revolver proposition, .38spl allows for more freedom in projectile mass, velocity, shape, and composition relative to 9mm (presumably from a semi-auto). Semi-autos have much narrower parameters which allow proper function through them. If one needs extremely low recoil from a light CCW piece, .38spl does that better than similar-size/mass 9mm options with target wadcutters. If one needs woods defense, non-plus-P cast WC or SWC are superior to semi-auto FMJ or JHP. And if one wants to move to heavy +P fodder, 158gr cast lead SWC penetrate straight & true through critter flesh & bone.
9mm does well in anti-personnel roles where no 4- legged critters are likely on the dance card and where the lowest recoil is not needed. Federal's standard pressure HST and new-design deep penetrating Hydra shok in 9mm are truly impressive and will make me move on from the old Fed 135gr std pressure Hydra-Shok in my 9mm 1911.
CoalTrain49
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If they could just design a 300 BLK revolver we wouldn't have to go down this road ever again.
shoobe01
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Can we please stop quoting Marshall and Sanow, 20 years after it became clear they where irrelevant at best, most likely actually fraudulent?
Statisticians have found the Sanow/Marshall data impossible to explain by any means other than fraud. All reputable authorities consider the “Strasbourg Goat Tests” a hoax. These facts have been known since at least 1997.
https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/25_4/firingline/doctor-says-sanow-is-no-expert-6029-1.html
Personal bickering deleted. Let's cut that out.
My two cents (worth less than that).
1. 9mm for a belt carried semi auto.
2. Manageable 38 SPL works in a pocket carry J frame.
3. Manageable 38 SPL in some simple revolver such as a SW Model 10 or Ruger SP101 for the non gun afficiando easy to use, I won't train home defender. BTW, don't recommend thus but if that's what is happening, that's it.
My two cents (worth less than that).
1. 9mm for a belt carried semi auto.
2. Manageable 38 SPL works in a pocket carry J frame.
3. Manageable 38 SPL in some simple revolver such as a SW Model 10 or Ruger SP101 for the non gun afficiando easy to use, I won't train home defender. BTW, don't recommend thus but if that's what is happening, that's it.
Gridley
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https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
Links to the full data for the interested.
My $0.02 is that I find it hard to imagine a direct comparison of 9mm to 38spcl, but if you do and go with commercial ammo I think you're going to find 9mm comes out ahead. If you go to .357mag I think the gap gets a lot narrower.
Based on the tests posted above, both fall short of 40 S&W if you judge by expansion and penetration.
Zaydok Allen
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Man, I've been loading hundreds of 38 Specials lately. To think, I've been loading such an inferior round. I'm kind of ashamed.
They are dissimilar in velocity and bullet weight. The only similarity in my mind is bullet diameter.
As far as I'm concerned each one is superior or inferior based purely on the end user's preferred platform, revolver or semiauto.
The 38 Special has been rendered relatively obsolete by 38 Special +p and 357 magnum, and the Super 38 as well. Let's not forget 357 Sig either.
Does that fact make 38 Special less than lethal? Umm, no.
If you want similar velocity to 9mm, then shoot 357. If you don't think ear splitting noise and velocity are needed for your application, then 38 Special is probably going to suit you fine.
Besides,
Personally I don't think there is a controversy.
They are dissimilar in velocity and bullet weight. The only similarity in my mind is bullet diameter.
As far as I'm concerned each one is superior or inferior based purely on the end user's preferred platform, revolver or semiauto.
The 38 Special has been rendered relatively obsolete by 38 Special +p and 357 magnum, and the Super 38 as well. Let's not forget 357 Sig either.
Does that fact make 38 Special less than lethal? Umm, no.
If you want similar velocity to 9mm, then shoot 357. If you don't think ear splitting noise and velocity are needed for your application, then 38 Special is probably going to suit you fine.
Besides,
^^^^this is what really matters.
rpenmanparker
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You are right about just one thing. There is no real controversy. It is clear-cut.
You cannot will that which is false into being true on the basis of your “preferred platform”. You have totally misrepresented the relative attributes of .38 Special, .38 Special +P, .357 Magnum, and 9 mm. If you cannot use the ballistic results to impartially and correctly judge lethal-ness, what is the point of contributing to the conversation? It just keeps going back to nostalgia. I get that you like .38 Special. That doesn’t make it equivalent to .44 Magnum. Extreme example, but just as the numbers show that, they also show that it doesn’t make it equivalent to 9 mm. Impartial is the key concept.
Keep in mind that I am not criticizing .38 Special or +P as a fun cartridge to load and shoot. I am only saying it is not equal to 9mm as a self-denfense round. That is the topic of the thread.
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Zaydok Allen
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Says who? You? Why do you assume anyone cares about the criteria you feel applies especially when you didn't even start the thread? If a person prefers revolvers or refuses to use semiautos, then the superior cartridge for them is the 38 Special. Yes, I acknowledge that introduces a non ballistic attribute to the discussion, but that doesn't invalidate that preference or the relevance because you said so.
In what way exactly? Besides I already acknowledged in an earlier post that 9mm has the edge ballistically so where exactly did I say or even imply that 38 Special is superior when talking pure ballistics.
9mm will pass FBI protocols and has greater velocity, which will gain you flatter trajectory and very likely greater range. In a typical self defense situation against a person, I agree 9mm performs better based on tests.
However, some of us spend significant time in the woods. Glancing in one manual only, I have load data that will send a 170 gr bullet downrange at over 900 fps at standard pressures. I don't have a YouTube video for you to watch comparing that load to a 9mm, but if I'm dealing with an animal that is larger or built more heavily than a human, I want the heavy bullet that will track straighter and deeper than a 124 or 147 gr 9mm. Or heck they may even be close in penetration, but that's my point. Application matters.
Well it doesn't for me. All my 38 cal revolvers are 357 magnums. I bought 38s back in the day because the ammo shortages meant I could get my hands on those and not 357s. I don't use them for self defense, but in the right setting I would if I want a heavy bullet.
No kidding. And again, that's the point. They are two different cartridges that have different applications in today's world. I'm saying they are NOT equivalent as you can load them differently to fill different niches.
Consider the fact that not everyone's activities fit into your narrow definitions of what the application of a given cartridge has to be. Considering what two similar weight bullets are capable of from two different cartridges is important and clearly the 9mm in that criteria wins. But when you move away from similar bullet weights things change. To ignore that limits the discussion and imposes arbitrary restrictions.
There's a reason people consider these things as it's not as clear cut as saying one is better, and it's not about being right. It's about acknowledging the differences and choosing one based on your needs.
rpenmanparker
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Explain the “woods” thing to me please. And tell me why a Federal HST 147 gr +P JHP expanding to around 0.6 inches and penetrating around 15 inches wouldn’t be better than your load whether shot from a SA pistol or a revolver. More energy and more damage with the 9mm. And Just about the same recoil due to stud similar power factors.
Zaydok Allen
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I have worked in the the woods professionally for 15 years managing timber lands. I also recreate in the woods regularly for fun and live in a place with large predators.
The reason I mentioned it is that large animals are built more heavily than humans. They have thicker bones, denser musculature, some have thick hides, and fur. They are also four legged and present themselves shoulders forward when acting aggressively, which means hitting vital organs may require greater penetration and greater barrier penetration. (bone) And hitting a charging animal in the head is no easy task.
Sectional density comes into play in that case, as well as momentum. Like I said, the two may be fairly equivalent but frankly I don't want an expanding bullet in that scenario. I want something that has the ability to track straight through. Energy doesn't really mean anything in that situation.
Again, talking purely people defense, I'll take the HST and that is what I carry normally. In the woods where the threat can change to much larger critters, my choice can change based on the potential threat. I also load my own, which further increases options.
If we are talking a hard cast 9mm of similar weight and greater velocity, I'd probably go that way with the heaviest bullet I can get.
And I guess that's what it comes down to for me. Different applications for different cartridges. Personally I feel they're far enough apart that comparing the two makes almost no sense.
By the way, I'm not advocating using 38 Special for dangerous animal defense. But I'm not advocating 9mm either. There are better choices.
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rpenmanparker
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Thanks for that explanation. I appreciate it. Learned something today. I was wondering how you would feel about a hardball 9mm. Thanks for mentioning that. You could probably get (or load yourself) 147 g, FMJ RN or FMJ FN in +P.
rpenmanparker
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Big if there.
Zaydok Allen
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Certainly. It's good discussion.
I'm actually quite interested in getting into loading solid copper slugs for dangerous animal defense where maximizing penetration is important.
Unfortunately they are really expensive.
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