9MM CARBINE RELOADING

[Sgt Thwarp]

Ok, before we start I know I’m opening up a red can of worms. I just hope there’s not a lot of worms in it.
I know how to reload and work up new loads. However I’ve not been much into experimenting with a lot of different powders. For my 9mm handguns I’ve been using Titegroup (that’s gonna change!!) But that’s not what I’m here for today.
I recently purchased a new M&P FPC 9mm. Boy is it a fun gun and accurate.

I truely don’t want to be run’n to buy factory ammunition all the time, finding something my rifle likes and it usually out of stock. I prefer to reload.
The problem for me is this is a pistol turned rifle and as such requires a rifle reloading mentality. I’ve watched a few videos of what some guys are doing with their PCC reloads with impressive results, 150-200fps gains and accurately. Well that floats my boat alright!
But….they’ve been developing their loads to work in older weapons.
Such as one gentleman who worked up several hard hitting loads for a British Sterling Submachine Gun (SMG) that was converted into a semiautomatic using Accurate #7 and Alliant Power pistol.
Having no experience with either powder, only in readings…..#7 is a slow(er) burning powder used for weightier projectiles or longer barrels and Power Pistol is fast(er) burning. Of course you’re not going to find load data for 16” PCC’s from the big powder makers at least as far as I can see. There’s a big reason for that. Morons and Liability insurance.
Yeah the SMG is an entirely different beast. The barrel may be thicker than today’s, but the metallurgy was different when it was developed in the late 40’s too. I prefer not to complicate things by using the SMG as a comparison. The point being…one of the two powders seem workable for my needs which is maximum velocity for either 115 or 124gr bullets. I do have both, just a lot of 115gr. I’m most concerned about pre-ejection of cases and blowouts naturally.
I’m not at all convinced that a fast burner would be the way to go. However the guy with the SMG wasn’t destroying cases either. For the most part he was using max loads FOR HANDGUNS; and that’s frightening in a modern semiauto pistol caliber carbine……or shouldn’t it be?

I’m not exactly sure which powder direction to go…fast, slow, intermediate……definitely want cleaner burning and cooler barrels. Titegroup does neither and it won’t get used in the firearm which is already a bugger to clean as it is.
The can of worms is open!

 

[Blue68f100]

I would use a med burn rate powder if it was me. All my 9mm loads are with WSF, very similar burn rate as unique but it meters accurately since it's a ball powder.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The good news is, most powder and bullet makers who publish reloading data are now also publishing PCC-tuned data. Sierra's app lists 9mm Luger (Rifle) data for their pistol bullets. Mostly, it's just their pistol data using medium-to-slow powders - Unique, Herco, No.7, Blue Dot, etc. - exclusively and leaving off the faster powders. Locking breaches and blowback breaches react differently so I guess that also depends. I know the Ruger, M&P and Kel-Tec are blowback but I'm not sure all PCC 9mm's are. Too slow of a powder and you get a face full of hot gas - no bueno! - and too fast of a powder you end up with keyholing and erratic performance - also no bueno.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Food for thought,
AA#7 and 115 gr bullets get comusumed by the thousands every week as it's one of most if not most used powders to make 9mm major.

I regularly shoot RMR 135s under 6.6 gr of AA#7 out a shadow 2. It's a nice load.

 

[nastynatesfish]

I use n320. I shoot 147gr in my ar build with a 8.5” barrel and in my mp5. One of the cleanest burning powders I’ve ever used. I bought 2 4lb jugs of it. I also use aa7 for some 9mm but in pistols with 124gr. I also buy a lot of bullets from rmrbullets.com but I’ve been buying a bunch of 147gr vcrown and hst from Americanreloading.com same place I get the powder from.

 

[Walkalong]

I know I’m opening up a red can of worms.

The can of worms is open!

We don't do that there. Have a serious question , we're here to help, want to stir crap up.....won't be tolerated.


My N320 9MM plinker load gains zero velocity in a 16" AR, while my HS-6/WSF/AA#5 loads gain 150/200ish FPS from the 16" barrel vs a 5" one.

The fast burning powders don't soot up the case as much as the slow burners, because it's a blow back design.

 

[Sgt Thwarp]

I know the Ruger, M&P and Kel-Tec are blowback but I'm not sure all PCC 9mm's are.

I do believe nobody does for the simple reasons and complications listed. It wouldn’t be very popular at all. Maybe someone makes an NFA somewhere. Who knows? I do know that way over 10 years ago, someone made a pistol that was gas piston assisted, similar to that of an M1 or mini 14. Apparently it didn’t generate a lot of interest.

 

[LiveLife]

M&P FPC 9mm ... don’t want to be run’n to buy factory ... I prefer to reload.

Welcome to THR and congratulations!

this is a pistol turned rifle and as such requires a rifle reloading mentality

No. M&P FPC (Folding Pistol Carbine) 9mm is a blowback pistol caliber carbine (PCC) and requires blowback reloading mentality like shooting blowback action Ruger 10/22 22LR - https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

The bolt/buffer is held against the chamber by the combined weight of bolt/buffer and recoil spring tension and you need faster burning powder to improve case mouth/neck expansion to seal with chamber/dwell time (Time bolt/buffer remains in contact with the chamber before moving back from blowback action recoil compared to delayed locked breech action used for M&P series pistols) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-pcc-bolt-choice.903452/#post-12248344

Accurate #7 and Alliant Power pistol.

#7 is a slow(er) burning powder used for weightier projectiles or longer barrels and Power Pistol is fast(er) burning.

Yes, No 7 is way too slow powder for blowback PCC loading to produce consistent enough chamber pressure and likely will produce more inconsistent loads with A LOT of black soot on case. Power Pistol is faster burning powder (relatively speaking) to improve case mouth/neck expansion to seal with chamber, but is on the slower side for blowback PCC loading and produces more black soot than even faster burning powders (I did blowback PCC load development using slower BE-86 down to faster Bullseye/Red Dot/Promo and faster powders produced less black soot on case and smaller groups at 50/100 yards).

115 or 124gr bullets ... concerned about pre-ejection of cases and blowouts naturally

Producing "muffin top" expansion of case base depends on several factors such as combined weight of bolt/buffer, recoil spring rate, powder burn rate, powder charge amount, etc. From my testing, 115/124 gr bullets shot in various PCCs (Just Right carbine with 1:16 twist rate barrel, PSA 1:10 twist rate upper, BCA/Zaviar 1:10 twist rate upper), both worked well without sign of "blowout" expansion of case base.

NOTE (Consideration for longer distance shooting): If you are shooting at longer distance of 50 to 100 yards, you also need to consider bullet drop (Like shooting 22LR at 50/100 yards with similar muzzle velocities) and lighter, faster bullets produce less bullet drop. @Walkalong's suggestion, I tested lighter 100 gr and even lighter 95 gr RMR FMJ and found faster muzzle velocities (Around 1500 fps) produced less bullet drop and at 50 yards, produced around 1.5" 10 shot groups and at 100 yards, 3.5" 10 shot groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-pcc-handloads.894850/#post-12054942

And like shooting blowback 22LR rifles, don't expect locked breech MOA accuracy at 100 yards from blowback PCC as you are likely to produce larger groups more in line with 22LR. American Rifleman review of JR carbine produced 0.5" - 1.25" at 25 yards - https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/just-right-carbine/

1:10 twist rate PSA vs 1:16 twist rate JR carbine comparison

I’m not exactly sure which powder direction to go…fast, slow, intermediate……definitely want cleaner burning and cooler barrels. Titegroup does neither

Well, USPSA PCC match shooters disagree.

Here's list of powders preferred for PCC/3 gun match shooting along with other divisions and bullseye match shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12415502

• PCC (9mm) - Titegroup 31%, Sport Pistol 18%, N320 16%, Clean Shot 11% (Comparable to AA No. 2)
• Open (9mm Major 63%/38 SuperComp 34%) - 3N38 18%, AutoComp 13%, HS-6 11%, CFE Pistol 8%
• Limited/L10 (40S&W 88%/9mm 12%) - N320 23%, Titegroup 22%, Sport Pistol 11%, WST 5%
• Production (9mm) - Titegroup 35%, N320 23%, Sport Pistol 16%
• Bullseye matches - Bullseye/N310/N320/700-X/Clays/Titegroup/WST/W231(HP-38)

 

[Hugger-4641]

I've found HS-6 and red dot to be very versatile in my pistols and PCC's.
I haven't chronograph them yet from my Sub2000, but 115gr fmj with 6.4gr Hs-6 gives me about 1230fps in a 4" barreled auto and about 1370 in my Ruger PCC. This was with Coal of 1.06 due to one of my pistols having a tight throat, otherwise I'd run them at 1.12 , which drops speed about 30fps.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have an AR-15 based 9x19 carbine and I use the same ammunition as I load for pistols. Currently, I use True Blue powder with 115 or 124 grain bullets.

I guess a blow back action may need a different load to optimize performance. Maybe not.

I’ve found my carbine does not improve the performance of 9x19 much over a handgun except that the longer sight radius of the carbine improves hits at longer ranges.

 

[LiveLife]

115gr fmj with 6.4gr Hs-6 gives me about 1370 in my Ruger PCC ... with Coal of 1.06

FWIW, some chrono data from my PCC load testing - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

 

[lordpaxman]

@Sgt Thwarp, welcome to THR!
I don’t have a PCC yet, but am always interested in what reloads would be best for them or at least a place to start. I do talk to the PCC guys at the matches and a lot of them use the same ammo in both semi and PCC to keep it simple. Hope to hear what you cook up.

 

[drband]

I like Promo with a 95gr bullet for 9mm carbine. Yields 1400+ fps in a Hi-point 9mm carbine (blow-back). Accuracy is as good as any 9mm load I’ve ever shot at 50 & 100 yds.

 

[Sgt Thwarp]

Dang, now all the PCC shooters chime in!
What a gold mine!! Lots to go through!
Keep it coming fellas!! You have no clue how valuable this stuff is.
I do print this stuff up for spiral bound type books for a private reference type library. Guess I’m gonna have to start another for PCC’s.

 

[Sgt Thwarp]

@Sgt Thwarp, welcome to THR!
I don’t have a PCC yet, but am always interested in what reloads would be best for them or at least a place to start. I do talk to the PCC guys at the matches and a lot of them use the same ammo in both semi and PCC to keep it simple. Hope to hear what you cook up.

Cook up? Don’t say cook up in the same thread as gunpowder. Kaboom!
Read some of the recent posts here and you’ll find a lot more than I can offer.

 

[ParallelCode]

Food for thought,
AA#7 and 115 gr bullets get comusumed by the thousands every week as it's one of most if not most used powders to make 9mm major.

I regularly shoot RMR 135s under 6.6 gr of AA#7 out a shadow 2. It's a nice load.

Out of curiosity, what is your COAL on that RMR 135gr load? I know the S2 has a very short throat requiring some pretty deep seating.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Power Pistol is the big winner for 9 mm carbine in the Lyman manual.
It’s listed as the most accurate powder in 5 of the 6 loads and gives top velocity.
I’ve always used whatever I was loading in pistol loads. Usually Bullseye or W231, but I wasn’t chasing top velocity.
If I were buying something for a carbine load I would give Power Pistol a try.

 

[jmorris]

With straight blow back actions, I don’t mess with extremes much, generally stay in the middle of the road.

If you want more accuracy, you will want the more expensive JHP projectiles. If you want to go “bang” a lot for less money, plated projectiles are a good choice, if it won’t run on cast.

If you pick a slower powder for 9mm vs a fast one (think HS-6 vs Tightgroup) you can see higher gains from short to long barrels (with the same peak pressures).

 

[Sgt Thwarp]

With straight blow back actions, I don’t mess with extremes much, generally stay in the middle of the road.

If you want more accuracy, you will want the more expensive JHP projectiles. If you want to go “bang” a lot for less money, plated projectiles are a good choice, if it won’t run on cast.

If you pick a slower powder for 9mm vs a fast one (think HS-6 vs Tightgroup) you can see higher gains from short to long barrels (with the same peak pressures).

Well the problem with Plated bullets in carbines is, they’re not recommended for max velocity loads. Godda watch those crimps too.
In my hanguns I don’t worry about plated. I use em! They’re not going in my carbine when I’m looking for velocity. For that I’m gonna get some FMJ’S from RMR. Always wanted to try em. Now I have a reason to.

 

[jmorris]

Well the problem with Plated bullets in carbines is, they’re not recommended for max velocity loads.

They would be more attractive than they are, if that was the only problem with them.

They also lack the accuracy other designs have. This is 10 plated at 100 yards.



And the next 10 rounds using a quality JHP, same everything else.

 

[alfsauve]

I only shoot PCC in Steel Challenge, so I cooked up some loads that would be light and reliable,
. Using a Ruger PC9 I loaded 147gr X-treme plated bullets over 3.0gr of Clean Shot and got good results. Entire World Speed Shoot with no malfunctions. Soft shooting. accuracy good, but then we only shoot out to 35yds. Also shoots well in my SW 929 revolver. I’ve since uploaded to 3.2gr for reliability in my P365 BUG.

 

[IALoder]

I run the same loads through the Ruger PC Carbine 9mm as I do my 2 9mm pistols. 124gr Berry's plated RN over 4.2gr of either HP38 or N320, both are good for ~1050fps in the pistols and ~1180 in the carbine. The carbine seems to love the faster powders as I tried the same bullets with AA#5 and power pistol. They weren't near as accurate, and the cases were nasty dirty. Very clean and accurate with HP38 or N320.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Out of curiosity, what is your COAL on that RMR 135gr load? I know the S2 has a very short throat requiring some pretty deep seating.

On the rmr 135 and I believe the 124s are the same, don't quote me on the 124s, the bullets hit the leade at around 1.100 to 1.105.
So I subtract .015 and load them at 1.085.

Also load SNS 135 lead, acme bullets is darn near the same bullet if not the same, I load those at 1.120.

 

[Sgt Thwarp]

Well, I’m still getting used to my first PCC. I’ve only had it 2 weeks now and been to the club twice. First time was just a shakedown with cheap flip up sights. Did 4 inch groups at 25 yrds. Not bad. Then I took it out this Sunday with my new optic, Mepro M21T to sight it in. This too is my first reflex sight. I sighted it in with cheap Monarch 115gr FMJ ammo. The sight was way low. No big deal but you can see that group low on the cardboard. Then when I was happy with the sighting in, I pulled out some Blazer brass. Groups tightened up exponentially! I was impressed. Problem with blazer is its coated copper, at least not as thin as most coated ammo I’ve seen. But, I won’t make a habit out of shooting blazer through a PCC for sure. I’m not fond of even a smidgen of lead in my barrels. Easy enough to scrub out though. I just don’t like scrubbing!
There’s one flyer only because I flinched for some reason.

Then it was time to go yet I had 15rnds left. WASTE EM!
So I stood up and fired em as fast as I could aim for following up.
I need work, but still….it’s a dead bad guy! (at least that paper won’t mess with anyone ever again! )
Not bad for a first timer at 25 yards.

 

[RashQuestion]

What a gold mine!! Lots to go through!
Keep it coming fellas!! You have no clue how valuable this stuff is

Welcome to The High Road! You are so right regarding this site being a GOLD MINE of information!!! Thanks to all that contribute here!!!

It has helped me answer many of my questions even before I've asked!!!

Great People, Great Information and Great Help to us who need it!!! Especially me!!!

God Bless and Be Safe Out There!!!