9mm for deer?

[RyanM]

147 gr Winchester Supreme SXT (the civilian stuff, not the Ranger Talons) has terrible expansion and overpenetrates like crazy. Not a good recipe for defensive ammo, but may be suitable for hunting deer.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/9mm/win9-147ssxt-g26.htm

 

[pcf]

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=63121&highlight=9mm+deer

Whitetail deer have chest cavities that are similar in size to human chest cavities (both 8-10" across). If it will work on people, it will work on deer. Keep the distances reasonable, should work fine.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes--but how well does it even work on people

 

[Jeeper]

As long as you use it at the ranges that humans are shot and use like 5 rounds then I will say it is ok. Otherwise I dont think so.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel (rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition); or muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger; or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger.
Also isn't the 9 considered a tapered case?

That says .357 or larger in a pistol - not a rifle... I always thought that Ohio didn't allow rifles, or maybe it was just semiauto rifles. I thought you could only use shotguns, muzzleloaders, and pistols... Maybe that's only in certain areas... Maybe I think too much...

So, on to proper shot placement...

 

[trickyasafox]

within a reasonable range and careful shot placement i think it would be fine. if the guy is serious about hunting he's probably also serious about taking the game humanly, and if he restricts himself to archery distances i think its accomplishable out of a 9mm carbine. i second the georgia arms stuff. i've heard great things about them. as for other factory loads though im at a loss, as i shoot either cheapie 9mm or my reloads

black hills has a 147gr jhp that might work
winchester has a 147gr flat point i'd consider too
they also have a "supreme expansion" in the 147 gr class that probably would serve the needs well

all of these are available on midwayusa.com too.

ideal? obviously a lot of people here don't think so. but if it's all the guy feels he can handle and shoot well enough to give him a clean kill, then i'd support it over another gun he may not be as competent with

 

[robertbank]

I believe Stephen A. Camp has taken deer with his 9MM HI-Powers down in Texas. I respect his views and I am sure he would not do it unless he felt the gun was capable of taking deer at reasonably close range.

Stephen can speak to the subject better than I.

Stay Safe

 

[ChristopherG]

I believe Mr. Camp is a fan of the Hornady XTP bullet (124 gr), but over a charge of Unique significantly higher than anyone is loading commercially. Such is my memory, but he may have used others as well.

 

[The Bushmaster]

pcf...It takes anywhere from 6 to 13 9 X 19mm rounds to stop a man. And 18 rounds to drop a 85 year old lady holding a broom (cops thought it was a shotgun).

Cosmoline...I love that can of worms...Goin' fishin'???

If memory serves me right (and I'm a senior citizen). california requires that it be any center fire firearm...Their thinking is that a hunter is smart enough to know what works and what does not work...And I agree. .22 is for illegal hunting only...

 

[BluesBear]

semantics

Wolf is right, according to the ordinance quotes, rifle hunting is not allowed.

I know the same goes for neighboring Kentucky. For the most part you just cannot hunt deer with a rifle there either. (unless they changed it after I moved away)


The ordinance said "straight walled" it didn't say "parallel walled".
And even though the 9mm is tapered it is till a straight walled cartridge.
It has no shoulder or separate neck.

 

[therealsteamer]

Kentucky will allow a rifle to be used for deer hunting, if this is not the case then a buddy of mine has been taking his .270 down therefor the last several years and is up to no good. He can't however take any of the elk in the county where the huntin' cabin is.

 

[Michael Courtney]

My colleagues, children, and I have shot a number of deer with sabot 9mm pistol bullets from a muzzleloader at velocities comparable to a 9mm carbine. It's not an optimal choice for sport hunting of deer, but it will work. As with any bullet, shot placement is critical. Reliable expansion is also critical, but you don't need more than 12" of penetration with broadside chest hits. Any one of the Speer Gold Dot loads will give 12-16" of penetration and reliable expansion at close ranges. The trajectory is better with the 115 and 124 grain loads. I also like the 115 and 124 grain Hornady XTP. As they both give reliable expansion and good penetration. The XTP and Gold Dot designs are both pretty accurate as well.

I don't like the 147 grain loads for this application. The trajectory is too arched at 100 yards, there's a lot of wind drift, and the bullet may have slowed down below it's expansion threshold. The added barrel length doesn't usually add as much velocity to 147 grain bullets as it does to lighter bullets. In addition, the deer we've shot with 147 grain bullets tend to travel significantly further than the deer we've shot with 115 grain bullets.

Michael Courtney

 

[mikec]

I believe Stephen A. Camp has taken deer with his 9MM HI-Powers down in Texas. I respect his views and I am sure he would not do it unless he felt the gun was capable of taking deer at reasonably close range.

Stephen can speak to the subject better than I.

Stay Safe

The question to ask is are they the same species of deer? What do they hunt in Texas, most of the Northeast is white tail.

 

[therealsteamer]

The same but different

Having grown up in NE Louisiana and now living in NE Ohio I can safely say it is the same "brand" of deer, EXCEPT for the fact that these yankee deer are monsters when compared to their southern brethren. My father-in-law still gets ribbed by some of his union buddys about the huge one in East Texas he refused to take a shot on 'cause he was "waiting for the mom or dad". All I can figure is it has to do with ALL the fields and farmland up here, they eat a hell of a lot better.

 

[NCP24]

NCP24, I don't know where you or your father-in-law lives, but here in Idaho, killing deer with a 22lr is called "poaching," not "deer hunting."

Perfectly legal here in NC and no I have never tried this. He use to make fun of us kids for pulling out the “big guns” (270, 06’s, 300’s) to go deer hunting when he filled his bag limit every year with a cheap single shot 22lr and $.50 box of shells. His sons would just shake their heads and remind him that 25 yards is a lot closer than 300, he would just laugh and say he never heard them complain about dinner. The way I see it if a man can legally and consistently kill deer with a weapon then why change a good thing.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

I learn something everyday - I didn't know shooting deer with a rimfire was legal anywhere in the U.S. And though I've heard of it before, especially with a spotlight at night, I'll never believe it's ethical.

 

[birddog]

Mohican +1

With proper shot placement into the vitals just *behind* the shoulder, not through it, you've got a dead critter. Us bowhunters have been doing it for years.

Ideal round? Nope.

 

[NCP24]

I learn something everyday - I didn't know shooting deer with a rimfire was legal anywhere in the U.S. And though I've heard of it before, especially with a spotlight at night, I'll never believe it's ethical.

The thread is about hunting deer with a 9mm carbine not a rimfire 22lr’, my point is if a 22lr in the hands of a skilled person can consistently harvest deer then surely a 9mm can do the same.

Regarding you’re bias remark concerning “spotlight at night” well that’s just stereotypical. I suppose we should outlaw bows, crossbows and all weapons that don’t meet a certain noise criteria because people will break the law? Poppycock! As for ethics, do we really want our government to Legislate ethics?

What is more ethical a man who can consistently harvest deer with what ever caliber or one who takes poor aim, over extends his capabilities and relies on blood trails to harvest?

 

[antarti]

NCP24,

I have no problem with somebody choosing to use a 9mm or .22LR or even 22CB cap.It's their choice and doesn't offend me in the least, but it's my opinion that it's just not a good one for the intended game, and hunting in general.

There is a consideration that keeps me leery of using an AK or carbine in the woods like I do though, and that is the frequency with which I run up on a non-targeteted animal, say, a decent black bear or large alligator.

I'd hate to see what the aftermath of a fight between a stalking black and "hunter + Ruger 10/22" looks like. Same goes for some of the extremely large gators we have in the swampy areas here.

There are good reasons beyond deer anatomy to "carry enough gun".

 

[444]

I have shot a mule deer buck twice with a 9mm handgun. I was using a Ruger P89 and handloaded 147 grain Remington Golden Sabre bulllets.
I am not going to go into the whole story: I have told it several times before on this board.
The shots were at a deer running away at an angle like about 2 o'clock if I was facing 12 o'clock. A raking shot. Probably the worst possible angle. Neither shot penetrated anywhere near the vitals.

I know there are places and circumstances where I would use a 9mm carbine for deer shooting. For example, I grew up in eastern Ohio. It isn't all that unusual to have deer within 10 yards of you. It isn't unusual to be in a tree stand and have deer walking right underneath you. If you carefully shot one of these deer in a specific spot on the head, I am sure the 9mm cartridge would drop the deer in it's tracks. Any shot beyond that and I would consider the 9mm to be woefully underpowered. I would consider the 9mm Luger to be no better than a .22 LR against deer. If you could make a humane killing shot with a 9mm, you could have done the same thing with a .22 LR.

My experience with 9mm carbine velocity was posted here on this board a couple years ago. I chronoed various 9mm handguns and carbines using various handloads and a few factory loads. I found that you gain very little velocity by using a longer barrel. Yes, you gain some velocity, but not much.

FWIW, I own three 9mm carbines: A Hi-Point, a Ruger PC9, and an AR15 which is registered as an SBR: I have barrels of 16" and 11.5". I also have a submachine gun chambered for the 9mm Luger cartridge. I am pretty familiar with the 9mm Luger cartridge out of a carbine as well as a handgun. It is not suitable for deer hunting using any load. It is OK for deer shooting under very carefully controlled circumstances.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

NCP24,
Absolutely. This thread is about hunting deer with a 9mm Luger carbine. There are similar threads all the time on this message board. Threads such as hunting elk and moose with .30-30s or .243 Winchesters are pretty much the same debates. I’ve seldom, if ever participated in those threads. However, with over 40 years big game hunting experience, and having killed deer with everything from a .30-carbine to a .338 Winchester Magnum, as well as a couple of large bore handguns and muzzle-loaders, I have my beliefs about deer guns and people who shoot deer.
No, I don’t want the government legislating ethics. I don’t even believe it’s possible.
I do believe it’s unethical to shoot deer with a .22lr. I also believe it’s unethical for person to shoot deer with a gun that is too powerful for that person to shoot accurately. Also, I believe it’s unethical for a person to shoot deer at a greater distance than that person can accurately place their shots with any gun (or bow) regardless of how powerful the weapon is. If that’s bias or stereotyping, so be it.
Furthermore, about legislating ethics – it’s illegal in North Carolina to shoot deer with any handgun less than .24-caliber. Look it up. I did. It’s illegal in Idaho to shoot deer with rimfires. Those laws are no more or less about legislating ethics than laws about the time and length of hunting seasons.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I do not consider the 9mm pistol cartridge as a "good" whitetail load for general deer hunting. That said, I've cleanly killed 6 or 7 Texas whitetails using 9mm handguns and expanding ammunition. I've passed on many more than I shot over 30 years. On broadside shots, I've had fine luck with the 124-gr. XTP over 6.0 grains Unique as well as Winchester's 127-gr. +P+. With the XTP, all broadside shots whether through shoulders, torso and one shoulder, or just the body cavity have made through-andl-through wounds. One deer required two shots, the last being a coup de grace as it was still alive when I got to it. Had the same thing happen with a hot-loaded .44 Special a few years ago.

Texas whitetails where I hunt are not that large. The largest I've killed with a 9mm pistol has been a doe @ 140-lbs. In one state-sanctioned game management plan I was part of, many were considerably smaller. Unless presented a close shot under ideal conditions, I pass with the handgun, any handgun...or rifle. I set my criteria for these and set them well within what I think I might be capable of. I have not noted any difference in reaction between deer shot with 9mm, .45 ACP, .44 Spec (handloaded), .44 magnum, or .45 Colt. If hit right and true, they usually jump, take a few steps and go down. The farthest I've had one run was about 30 yards; .45 Colt using a 255-gr. CSWC @ 950 ft/sec. I hit a bit high in the lungs or it might have fallen sooner. With any handgun, I only shoot when the deer is stationary. If it's not, I don't shoot. Placement is everything with them in my view with about any handgun. (I do cheat and have a rifle at hand for nice deer either too far out or moving, usually a .308 or .30-06.)

I don't believe I'd shoot much larger than a whitetail the size I've described with 9mm. For me, south Texas javelina have been tougher to "stop" than the whitetail. I wouldn't hunt mule deer with one. I think it helps if the animal is not excited and doesn't suspect that you are even in the same county it is, adrenaline and all that.

The high-powered rifle and "powerful" handgun offer us more options than lesser powered handguns with regard to quartering shots vs. broadside.

Best.

 

[NCP24]

I have no problem with somebody choosing to use a 9mm or .22LR or even 22CB cap.It's their choice and doesn't offend me in the least, but it's my opinion that it's just not a good one for the intended game, and hunting in general.

Agreed.

Furthermore, about legislating ethics – it’s illegal in North Carolina to shoot deer with any handgun less than .24-caliber.

We aren’t talking about handguns, for that matter the NC/local law(s) do prohibit the use of certain calibers/types of firearm on some game. I don’t agree with 22’s on deer, but in this case the man used what he wanted and produced more deer than I did using a 30-06. If it works for him or someone else and it’s legal who am I to tell them they are wrong.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

No, we aren't talking about handguns. And at that point I was talking about legislating ethics. You asked me about how I felt about legislating ethics, remember? Thanks for quoting only part of what I wrote.
I've never even been in North Carolina, much less seen the size of the deer you have there. Nor do I know anything about the normal shooting distances for deer there and the shooting capabilities of your father-in-law. I said I'll never believe shooting deer with a .22lr is ethical. However, that doesn't mean I would like to see legislation banning it. Lawmakers tend to screw things up. For instance, it's against the law to shoot big game here in Idaho with rimfires. But that law leaves the door open to shooting moose in the ribs with 9mm Luger handguns. It has happened. And I only wish that moose would have stomped that hunter wannabe into dust before the partner came along and put the moose down with a 30-06.
From what I've read about the size of deer in North Carolina, and the normal shooting distances, with the right load in the hands of the right hunter, I suspect a 9mm Luger carbine would be sufficient.

 

[MikeHaas]

As a young teen in Western Pennsylvania, my left-handed older brother, God rest his soul, was afflicted with Polio in the late 50's. The old "Iron Lung" days. He survived but his physical stature was greatly reduced by the disease. Dad looked for a good deer gun that was easy to operate, accurate, powerful enough for PA Whitetail yet not kick too hard. The old man settled on the Winchester Model 88 in .243 Win.


Great choice, great rifle great round. And GREAT on deer. My bro had so much fun with that gun, glass-bedding it, working loads, consistent 1 MOA, honest! (The 88 shared many bolt-action features, such as forward triple rotating locking lugs and a one-piece stock.)

Anyway, I would consider the 9mm a horrendous choice for animals of this mass, just as the military declares the pistol to be a secondary, close combat weapon. I never had to fight with a deer. The real worry? Someone that stupid is dumb enough to use hardball ammo too.

Show them this ballistic comparison of the 9mm with more appropriate choices like the 44 Mag, 243 Win and other popular deer rounds. I threw in the .460 S&W Magnum to illustrate the most powerful handgun cartridge available.

http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=3|43|144|389|122|95|92|99

346 ft-lbs for an animal that can go over 200 lbs is just not enough margin to insure a clean kill. If the guy wants a challenge, maybe he should just take his shirt off and put a Bowie knife between his teeth.

Mike