9mm issue on Dillon 550B

[Palladan44]

I have a huge lot of 147gr. projectiles Winchester notched 147gr JHP and Speer Gold Dot G2s. I believe my current resize/deprime die is "undersized" and the neck tension is a little extreme, and the ridge where the base of the bullet meets the brass is obnoxious looking. If thats where the problem ended, I'd be fine but it doesn't end there...

Sometimes they wind up seating slightly crooked, and it does not matter if I used a sleeved seater stem (Redding Competition) or what shape of seater stem I use, about one in 4 will be crooked.

Yes, I've case expanded quite a lot, and the problem persists. I'm also well aware to lock down the die with a case in the toolhead, with the toolhead raised so it stays centered. Ive also tried backing off the resizer so it's not full length.

90% of these pass the plunk test, but some are bad enough, that they will not!! OALs are at or slightly below book specs. And the crimp is far adequate enough.

Ive been over this problem time after time. I thought it was first only cosmetic, but the ones that are off center are really off center, meaning the bulge where the base of the bullet meets the brass is assymetric. The ones that are centered, have a huge bulge where the base of the bullet meets the brass, about half way up the case. Far bigger of bulge than any factory ammunition I've ever seen.

My last idea is to get a new resize/deprime die, one that isnt as undersized as the Dillon factory one, and that slightly less neck tension will help decrease the apparent "bulge" and maybe they will be seated more centered if they have less neck tension. Ill send pictures later tonight.

 

[jmorris]

My last idea is to get a new resize/deprime die, one that isnt as undersized

The 9mm is a tapered case, just raise the die a little and everything below will be a little larger than the previous setting.

I actually set my die’s up with a case gauge, once a sized case drops into and out of it, I stop going lower with the die, screwing the die down further only works the brass more than necessary and leads to the issues you are talking about.

 

[runner3264]

I don't see bulges in 9mm brass. The 147gr bullet may be the issue. The bullet is large for caliber and is longer and the ogive is rounder.
the bullet may be hitting the lands while doing the plunk test. When using a gauge the bullet may be again bottoming out inside the gauge before the neck bottoms out. You may need to seat your bullets deeper and also you need to make to sure expand the brass enough.
Some brass is thicker than others too, and verify you aren't over crimping.
I highly recommend this powder through expander for your 550B. all of your issues will be resolved! If you do seat deeper and that works, you may need to adjust your load.
My 9mm neck after crimping is around .372-.373 and go into my LW Wilson gauge every time

Also make sure your press is aligned properly

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

 

[Blue68f100]

I'm assuming your using mixed head stamps. It's possible that your seating the bullet so deep that your getting to the area when the brass thickens, making them fat.

 

[Palladan44]

Ok, I raised the resize die a bit and had similar results, about just beyond half way down. This is about to where I set it up to last time...... so I raised it a little more, to just less than half way down the case, approximately to where the bullet meets the brass...and there is NO bulge, and I loaded a few, and they're all sitting straight. They all plunk.
I'm super happy with the results. See the difference between the 2 on the left vs. The 2 on right.

 

[runner3264]

Make sure you have good neck tension. It is not uncommon to have a little bulge

 

[Palladan44]

Make sure you have good neck tension. It is not uncommon to have a little bulge

The bulges on the loads to the left in the pic are gigantic. Neck tension is still good, I can't push them in by pressing them against wood block with all my might!!!! That's the super scientific way I've tested neck tension for years.

 

[243winxb]

My RCBS die has a carbide sleeve that follows the taper of the 9mm case.

 

[jmorris]

Love a happy ending and you didn’t have to buy anything.

 

[lordpaxman]

so I raised it a little more, to just less than half way down the case, approximately to where the bullet meets the brass...and there is NO bulge, and I loaded a few, and they're all sitting straight.

The way I read this is your sizing die is adjusted so when the case is at the top of the stroke, the bottom of the die is even with the base of the bullet when seated to your COL?
If it works for you, great! It’s an interesting concept, I’d be a bit concerned with processing range brass that has varied base dimensions where your sizing die isn’t touching. I load a lot of 147’s and get the bulge quite a bit. Most pass the Shockbottle gauge, but some sit a bit proud mostly due to thicker brass like CBC. They still plunk, but I like lots of neck tension.
Given your description, it would seem an appropriate expander, that is one specific for your 147 bullets would work as well? Good luck.

 

[243winxb]

Neck sizing pistol brass-
RCBS had this in a news letter many years ago. Sizing down to about where the base of the bullet is. Didn't work for me.

Test a small batch in your firearm, before loading hundreds of rounds.

 

[Palladan44]

Update:
jmorris and lord Paxman are both very correct on this.
I've experimented with all different lengths of resizing, with both positive and not so great results.
The mixture of brass has been fired through who knows how many different firearms. Some plunk fine in a few of my Glock barrels, but some do not.
The come anywhere from 1/16" up to a whopping 1/8" shy of proper headspacing.
Interestingly enough, they all make it into my SIG P228 (circa 1990) telling me this firearm has far greater chamber tolerances than my glocks. Also, the tons of brass retrieved from this SIG over the years obviously fire-forms the brass to the greater size.

Is there anything else I can do to get both this smooth and straight neck tension (where the bullet sits straight) and get rid of the bulge towards the case head due to NOT full length resizing Again, with the extreme neck tension of full length resizing eliminates the bulge towards the case head, but I'll say it again, the extreme neck tension causes assymetrical seating of the bullet, causing a bulge that causes a different problem, causing hang-ups, and makes the rounds ugly.

Bulge buster? Can I bulge-bust rounds after they are already fully loaded?

 

[Zendude]

Have you tried a Lee factory crimp die? Or there might be a better seating die that will keep the bullet straight.

 

[Palladan44]

Have you tried a Lee factory crimp die?

Or there might be a better seating die that will keep the bullet straight.

Crimp die- Not in 9mm. Have one in 10mm.
What advantages would it have over the Dillon?

Seater dies-
Ive used both Dillon factory die, and Redding Competition seater (arguably the best there is)....same thing, bulged in the middle, with several assymetricly bulged.

 

[rfwobbly]

Ok, I raised the resize die a bit and had similar results, about just beyond half way down. This is about to where I set it up to last time...... so I raised it a little more, to just less than half way down the case, approximately to where the bullet meets the brass...and there is NO bulge, and I loaded a few, and they're all sitting straight. They all plunk.
I'm super happy with the results. See the difference between the 2 on the left vs. The 2 on right.

I'm sorry to say, but I disagree with both 1. your understanding of how dies work, and 2. the information you were given.

► The Sizing Die does not set the correct case mouth diameter or bullet holding tension. Never has, never will. Case wall thicknesses vary widely, even within one makers production. If the Sizing Die (which only shapes the OUTSIDE of the case) set the case mouth diameter, then the inside diameter of the case (due to these case wall variations) would vary too much to repeatably hold a bullet. Therefore, the Sizing Die MUST take the case mouth to an under-size condition. Why under-size? Because brass has a quality called "spring back". It is therefore necessary to move the brass to a diameter that is FAR LESS than the intended final diameter. This is the under-size you are seeing !

But that is not the end of the story.

The final step is to go back and and shape the INSIDE of the case mouth (where the bullet seats) to an appropriate diameter. This is done in a secondary step with a "die" that works only on the inside of the case mouth. This die is called the Expander. It may not look like a "die", and you may not call it a "die", but it is enlarging and shaping the inside of the case mouth to a precise inside diameter... and so you will need to change your thinking.

So from these 2 actions we can see (and hopefully begin to understand) that the re-sized body of the cartridge case, having passed under the Sizing Die, will ALWAYS be under-sized. And after the case passes through the Expander, only the interior of the case mouth will be reshaped to the correct bullet holding diameter. And so appearing undersized is exactly what we want to see.

On a Dillon press (regardless of die brand) the Expander is built into the powder measure, in the form of the Dillon Powder Funnel. You may not recognize it as such because the Funnel is doing multiple jobs, but the die function is there none-the-less.




► For the above reasons, you'll want your Sizing Die set to re-size AS MUCH of the cartridge case as possible in order to iron out any kinks picked up while laying on the ground, or side wall expansions caused by over-sized chambers or high power charges. In order to act on as much of the case as possible, the Sizing Die has to be set to come down and resize as much of the case as possible. That's what the design of the die intended.

Due to the fragility of the die's carbide insert, you cannot have the die 'kiss' the shellplate, and so the die is backed off that position as little as possible. I have begun to use a sheet of computer paper as my accepted clearance gauge. If I can see the Tool Head raise at the top of the stroke, BUT still pull out a slip of paper from between the die and shellplate, then I consider that setting good.

If you are setting your dies higher than this, then you are not getting all the 'good' out of your dies, AND you run the risk of not getting your case mouth properly sized (and thus lowered bullet holding grip) due to the brass spring-back conditions.


• If you'll think about the actions of the dies, the spring-back of the brass, and the actions of the press for just 10 minutes, I think you'll begin to understand that the above statements are true.

• Reloading is a Science. It deals with dimensions and highly repeatable cause and effect, that are measurable and have limits. If you bring yourself to a place where the appearance of the cartridge is more important that the performance of the cartridge, then, as a reloader, you are doomed.

Hope this changes some minds.

 

[243winxb]

Does Dillons 9mm fl die have a sizing ring or a sleeve?

 

[Palladan44]

I'm sorry to say, but I disagree with both 1. your understanding of how dies work, and 2. the information you were given.

► The Sizing Die does not set the correct case mouth diameter or bullet holding tension. Never has, never will. Case wall thicknesses vary widely, even within one makers production. If the Sizing Die (which only shapes the OUTSIDE of the case) set the case mouth diameter, then the inside diameter of the case (due to these case wall variations) would vary too much to repeatably hold a bullet. Therefore, the Sizing Die MUST take the case mouth to an under-size condition. Why under-size? Because brass has a quality called "spring back". It is therefore necessary to move the brass to a diameter that is FAR LESS than the intended final diameter. This is the under-size you are seeing !

But that is not the end of the story.

The final step is to go back and and shape the INSIDE of the case mouth (where the bullet seats) to an appropriate diameter. This is done in a secondary step with a "die" that works only on the inside of the case mouth. This die is called the Expander. It may not look like a "die", and you may not call it a "die", but it is enlarging and shaping the inside of the case mouth to a precise inside diameter... and so you will need to change your thinking.

So from these 2 actions we can see (and understand) that the resized body of the cartridge case, having passed under the Sizing Die, will ALWAYS be under-sized. And after the case passes through the Expander, only the interior of the case mouth will be reshaped to the correct bullet holding diameter.

On a Dillon press (regardless of die brand) the Expander is built into the powder measure, in the form of the Dillon Powder Funnel. You may not recognize it as such because the Funnel is doing multiple jobs, but the die function is there none-the-less.

View attachment 1048115


► For the above reasons, you'll want your Sizing Die set to re-size AS MUCH of the cartridge case as possible in order to iron out any kinks picked up while laying on the ground, or side wall expansions caused by over-sized chambers or high power charges. In order to act on as much of the case as possible, the Sizing Die has to be set to come down and resize as much of the case as possible. That's what the design of the die intended.

Due to the fragility of the die's carbide insert, you cannot have the die 'kiss' the shellplate, and so the die is backed off that position as little as possible. I have begun to use a sheet of computer paper as my accepted clearance gauge. If I can see the Tool Head raise at the top of the stroke, BUT still pull out a slip of paper from between the die and shellplate, then I consider that setting good.

If you are setting your dies higher than this, then you are not getting all the 'good' out of your dies, AND you run the risk of not getting your case mouth properly sized (and thus lowered bullet holding grip) due to the brass spring-back conditions.


• If you'll think about the actions of the dies, the spring-back of the brass, and the actions of the press for just 10 minutes, I think you'll begin to understand that the above statements are true.

• Reloading is a Science. It deals with dimensions and highly repeatable cause and effect, that are measurable and have limits. If you bring yourself to a place where the appearance of the cartridge is more important that the performance of the cartridge, then, as a reloader, you are doomed.

Hope this changes some minds.

I admit I'm not the most advanced reloader there is, although I've been doing it many years and know that I've reloaded about 30,000 rounds over a 10 year period with very few hiccups, and no safety issues. Apologies if anything I've previously stated sounds like something where I'm trying to preach beyond my knowledge level, which I don't believe I have done.
I stated in the first post that the extreme neck tension is causing some assymetrical bullet seating. The ugliness is only secondary to that.

What I want is to have these handloads all function at 100% and that's all. If they have the huge bulge,no problem. It needs to be symmetrical though!

I'm used to near perfection, which is really easy to achieve on the Dilon 550B, with following the simple instructions and using data to the- T. This batch has knocked me for a loop!

 

[Palladan44]

Rfwobbly:
Is it possible I can get a different case Expander tool/Funnel? To open up the case a tad more? I feel Dillon goes to the tightest possible tolerances so the loads plunk in as many firearms out there as possible. Which makes good sense, but in my case (no pun intended) with these specific projectiles,, the system isn't working as it should. And I agree with you that me tweaking the system in a manner in which it wasn't really intended, is bad methodology. You are right.
I do load in batches of matching headstamps, and the results seem in similar proportions across the Board...
Some may say just ditch these projectiles, which would solve the problem. I have a plethora of projectiles which have never given me any issue in 9mm. I have 2,500 pcs. I have about 220$ into I bought on impulse, because they were Speer Gold Dot G2s which are rarely if ever available to reloaders (they're black oxide coated, too) The vision of these black beauties loaded in nickel brass.... I admit I went for the "gold" and clicked "buy now" for no reason other than it was an exclusive item, one which I didn't really need....come to think of it 147gr is my least favorite weight of 9mm, always has been. But I've got em, and I must deal with em.

 

[Palladan44]

Ok, I had to find the exact sweet spot with the resizing die. I figured it out.
Red line is where resized down to. Had to find the happy medium where different bulges on either side of where the bullet sits to be evened out.
Both rounds on the left are so bad they wouldn't plunk in a Glock barrel.

The round on the right is sized enough to achieve good, noticeable uniform neck tension as well as to remove enough of the case bulge toward the head, allowing them to plunk and they even rotate in the chamber.

The reason they seated assymetrically when the case was fully resized, is still a mystery. But it doesn't matter now! ( FYI the one in the middle in the image was a slight longer OAL than other 2, but it wasn't a variable that mattered to the problem)

 

[Zendude]

I like rfwobbly’s explanation. Seems like the expander stem is not going deep enough into the brass to make way for the long bullets. I don’t know how deep the Dillon is capable of going into the case without over expanding the case mouth. Also, compounding the issue is your sizing die is undersizing the brass a bit more than is typical (I think). That’s usually not a problem, but with the long bullets you are using, it’s making for a tight fit and bulging the brass.

Be cautious of having the sizing die too high. If the raw brass is not in spec near the base, the sizing die will be too high to resize that part of the case.

 

[Palladan44]

I like rfwobbly’s explanation. Seems like the expander stem is not going deep enough into the brass to make way for the long bullets. I don’t know how deep the Dillon is capable of going into the case without over expanding the case mouth. Also, compounding the issue is your sizing die is undersizing the brass a bit (I think). That’s usually not a problem, but with the long bullets you are using, it’s making for a tight fit and bulging the brass.

Be cautious of having the sizing die too high. If the raw brass is not in spec near the base, the sizing die will be too high to resize that part of the case.

Agree, there's a fine line between out of spec ammo, and ones within. In this case, 1/16" height difference on the die is the difference between good and bad.

 

[lordpaxman]

My sigs will tolerate quite a bit of bulge as well. The NH versions have a good amount of freebore too, but the Vunderus Deutchland Republic ones are quite a bit shorter. I don’t know if the fired cases in those chambers are much larger than any other range brass or not, I’ve not been too concerned with it.

I don’t believe you can bulge bust tapered cases like the 9mm. Works for a 40, but not 9.

How old is your Dillon setup? I have a very recent RL1100, and it expands in both the swage station, and the powder drop station. I realize you have a 550B, but the power funnel that expands and bells the case I think has changed over the years. I replaced my factory funnel with the AA version that is more of an M style expander die. I’m not recommending you follow suit as I see very pronounced bulges with 147gr bullets, but rather if there’s any way to get a larger version of the M style expander, you could FL size, and it would probably not bulge as much.

OTOH, if you’re happy with where you have your size die now and it works for you…. Happy new year!

 

[Rodfac]

Call Dillon...their customer service is 2nd to none...they'll make it right. Rod

 

[rfwobbly]

Rfwobbly: Is it possible I can get a different case Expander tool/Funnel? To open up the case a tad more?

That's a question for Dillon CS. I have heard of several 3rd party Expanders, but for the last 22 years have used the stock Dillon Expander without issue. And here I'd like to note that I also am loading only for CZ and Dan Wesson auto pistols exactly like yours, using Dillon 550 and 650 presses exactly like yours. Again... with zero issues.

I feel Dillon goes to the tightest possible tolerances so the loads plunk in as many firearms out there as possible.

View attachment 1048154 Ok, I had to find the exact sweet spot with the resizing die. I figured it out.
Red line is where resized down to. Had to find the happy medium where different bulges on either side of where the bullet sits to be evened out.
Both rounds on the left are so bad they wouldn't plunk in a Glock barrel.

And this is an area where I think you begin to "loose it". Reloading is Science. Not as tough as Rocket Science, but Science none-the-less. Science deals with cause and effect; repeatable events. As such dimensions and measurements are the solution. You say you agree, then you turn around and only give us Feelings about and Aesthetics of the cartridge, those are in the Art of reloading. I don't care to know how the cartridge Looks or Feels, we only need the dimensions of the cartridge. "The Devil is in the details" which is exactly why every reloading manual has a dimensioned diagram of the cartridge. Stop and compare your cartridge dimensions to the diagram and you'll be on your way. I'm sorry if this is stepping on toes, but that's the long and short of it.

Some may say just ditch these projectiles, which would solve the problem.

I say keep the evidence. If you have nothing to measure, then you'll never have a solution.

I have a plethora of projectiles which have never given me any issue in 9mm. I have 2,500 pcs. I have about 220$ into I bought on impulse, because they were Speer Gold Dot G2s which are rarely if ever available to reloaders (they're black oxide coated, too) The vision of these black beauties loaded in nickel brass.... I admit I went for the "gold" and clicked "buy now" for no reason other than it was an exclusive item, one which I didn't really need....come to think of it 147gr is my least favorite weight of 9mm, always has been. But I've got em, and I must deal with em.

I will be the first to tell you that >> NOT EVERY BULLET SOLD CAN BE RELOADED FOR USE IN EVERY BARREL <<. And this is a problem for CZ- Dan Wesson owners who buy huge lots of bullets on the spur of the moment. Truth be told, this is exactly the problem I got into back around year 2000 when I bought my first CZ. (See photo below.) Luckily, by profession and education I was able to apply Scientific analysis and Engineering measurements to the problem.



The bullet on the left has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 0.984" (well under the SAAMI minimum). The bullet on the right has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 1.190" (which is actually longer than the mag will accommodate). How do I know this ? Simple, I made measurements. Feelings and Aesthetics did not solve this problem.

The round on the right is sized enough to achieve good, noticeable uniform neck tension as well as to remove enough of the case bulge toward the head, allowing them to plunk and they even rotate in the chamber.

I'm sorry, you don't know anything about neck tension by observation. I'm sorry, "case bulge" without numbers is simply a useless impression. Observations, impressions, feelings... these are wonderful qualities if your hobby is ladies fashion design... but not in reloading.

The reason they seated asymmetrically when the case was fully resized, is still a mystery.

I can tell you all about this. In order to seat a bullet straight and centered, the seating anvil has to fit the bullet ogive correctly. The Dillon seating anvils leave a lot to be desired in this department, so I construct my own.

But it doesn't matter now! ( FYI the one in the middle in the image was a slight longer OAL than other 2, but it wasn't a variable that mattered to the problem).

Finally some hard facts that prove my point. What you see is not always an issue. If you can't detect it with measurements and testing, then discount it as a contributor.... but only if you've first measured and tested.

All the information you need for constructing ammo that fits 'tight chambered" pistols, such as CZ and Dan Wesson handguns, is in the links I already sent you to the Original CZ Forum. Everything you need is laid out in black and white, in a very systematic manner. If you'll simply 1. get out your measuring tools, and 2. focus on the section entitled Physical Details of Cartridge Building then all your issues can be solved.

THR is a fabulous forum for general reloading questions, or even detailed questions about very popular pistols. The problem is that only a small percentage of the respondents have dealt with reloading for pistols with both tight chambers and short freebore. And so the responses you receive are all over the map, and only a small percentage actually apply. Sorting the correct responses can then become a larger issue than the reloading issue.

Hope this helps.

 

[Palladan44]

That's a question for Dillon CS. I have heard of several 3rd party Expanders, but for the last 22 years have used the stock Dillon Expander without issue. And here I'd like to note that I also am loading only for CZ and Dan Wesson auto pistols exactly like yours, using Dillon 550 and 650 presses exactly like yours. Again... with zero issues.



And this is an area where I think you begin to "loose it". Reloading is Science. Not as tough as Rocket Science, but Science none-the-less. Science deals with cause and effect; repeatable events. As such dimensions and measurements are the solution. You say you agree, then you turn around and only give us Feelings about and Aesthetics of the cartridge, those are in the Art of reloading. I don't care to know how the cartridge Looks or Feels, we only need the dimensions of the cartridge. "The Devil is in the details" which is exactly why every reloading manual has a dimensioned diagram of the cartridge. Stop and compare your cartridge dimensions to the diagram and you'll be on your way. I'm sorry if this is stepping on toes, but that's the long and short of it.


I say keep the evidence. If you have nothing to measure, then you'll never have a solution.


I will be the first to tell you that >> NOT EVERY BULLET SOLD CAN BE RELOADED FOR USE IN EVERY BARREL <<. And this is a problem for CZ- Dan Wesson owners who buy huge lots of bullets on the spur of the moment. Truth be told, this is exactly the problem I got into back around year 2000 when I bought my first CZ. (See photo below.) Luckily, by profession and education I was able to apply Scientific analysis and Engineering measurements to the problem.

View attachment 1048332

The bullet on the left has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 0.984" (well under the SAAMI minimum). The bullet on the right has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 1.190" (which is actually longer than the mag will accommodate). How do I know this ? Simple, I made measurements. Feelings and Aesthetics did not solve this problem.


I'm sorry, you don't know anything about neck tension by observation. I'm sorry, "case bulge" without numbers is simply a useless impression. Observations, impressions, feelings... these are wonderful qualities if your hobby is ladies fashion design... but not in reloading.


I can tell you all about this. In order to seat a bullet straight and centered, the seating anvil has to fit the bullet ogive correctly. The Dillon seating anvils leave a lot to be desired in this department, so I construct my own.

View attachment 1048333

View attachment 1048334


Finally some hard facts that prove my point. What you see is not always an issue. If you can't detect it with measurements and testing, then discount it as a contributor.... but only if you've first measured and tested.

All the information you need for constructing ammo that fits 'tight chambered" pistols, such as CZ and Dan Wesson handguns, is in the links I already sent you to the Original CZ Forum. Everything you need is laid out in black and white, in a very systematic manner. If you'll simply 1. get out your measuring tools, and 2. focus on the section entitled Physical Details of Cartridge Building then all your issues can be solved.

THR is a fabulous forum for general reloading questions, or even detailed questions about very popular pistols. The problem is that only a small percentage of the respondents have dealt with reloading for pistols with both tight chambers and short freebore. And so the responses you receive are all over the map, and only a small percentage actually apply. Sorting the correct responses can then become a larger issue than the reloading issue.

Hope this helps.

You seem to be a "Major leaguer" at the discipline and that is commendable.
Many of us are In lower leagues, me maybe "High School" or "Collegiate" in my case. Were all still playing the same game, and hopefully the primary reason we all do it is for enjoyment!
Sometimes we wont learn certain things, unless we're told it. And I do appreciate the insight.

Experienced Mechanics, Pilots, Astronauts, Machinists, Engineers, Rocket Scientists... you name it...know to still LOOK, LISTEN, SMELL and FEEL for problems in addition to what the Gauges say, and what the manual and checklists say, and it's not about some ladies fashion design which you've called it. Common now.....

How did you become so good at problem solving if you've had ZERO problems to deal with in 22 years?