9mm issue on Dillon 550B

[jmorris]

How did you become so good at problem solving if you've had ZERO problems to deal with in 22 years?

I have become fairly good at solving problems because I have had just about every problem one could come across at one point or another. Not sure if that’s good or bad though.

Often being a “if it’s not broken don’t fix it.” type of guy. I think I would prefer to not know how things work because they always work perfectly. A blissful ignorance…

 

[Tilos]

Rfwobbly:
Is it possible I can get a different case Expander tool/Funnel? To open up the case a tad more? I feel Dillon goes to the tightest possible tolerances so the loads plunk in as many firearms out there as possible. Which makes good sense, but in my case (no pun intended) with these specific projectiles,, the system isn't working as it should. And I agree with you that me tweaking the system in a manner in which it wasn't really intended, is bad methodology. You are right.
I do load in batches of matching headstamps, and the results seem in similar proportions across the Board...
Some may say just ditch these projectiles, which would solve the problem. I have a plethora of projectiles which have never given me any issue in 9mm. I have 2,500 pcs. I have about 220$ into I bought on impulse, because they were Speer Gold Dot G2s which are rarely if ever available to reloaders (they're black oxide coated, too) The vision of these black beauties loaded in nickel brass.... I admit I went for the "gold" and clicked "buy now" for no reason other than it was an exclusive item, one which I didn't really need....come to think of it 147gr is my least favorite weight of 9mm, always has been. But I've got em, and I must deal with em.

"Is it possible I can get a different case Expander tool/Funnel? To open up the case a tad more?"
Why yes, yes there is, but 1st, I don't see where you mentioned the diameter of these bullets.
Your problem could be the bullets are for 38 or 38 super and larger than traditional 9mm bullets.
The center bullet in your pic appears to have a crimp groove...
If that proves true, you could resize the bullets.
If not, nevermind...

It's common for reloaders loading cast bullets in 9mm to use bullets that are larger than 0.355"/0.356", I use bullets up to 0.358" for 9mm.
I also use a bigger diameter powder thru expander plug in my Lee powder thru expander die too.
This is a direct swap: Pm Expan Plg 38 S&w - Lee Precision
I'd have to measure it to post its size but I know it is bigger than the 9mm plug.
Just a long bloviating explanation for how I got rid of that bulge.
.

 

[Palladan44]

"Is it possible I can get a different case Expander tool/Funnel? To open up the case a tad more?"
Why yes, yes there is, but 1st, I don't see where you mentioned the diameter of these bullets.
Your problem could be the bullets are for 38 or 38 super and larger than traditional 9mm bullets.
The center bullet in your pic appears to have a crimp groove...
If that proves true, you could resize the bullets.
If not, nevermind...

It's common for reloaders loading cast bullets in 9mm to use bullets that are larger than 0.355"/0.356", I use bullets up to 0.358" for 9mm.
I also use a bigger diameter powder thru expander plug in my Lee powder thru expander die too.
This is a direct swap: Pm Expan Plg 38 S&w - Lee Precision
I'd have to measure it to post its size but I know it is bigger than the 9mm plug.
Just a long bloviating explanation for how I got rid of that bulge.
.

These bullets mic. .354 and are Speer Gold Dot G2 and are 147 grain.

 

[Tilos]

These bullets mic. .354 and are Speer Gold Dot G2 and are 147 grain.

OK, good to know.
The longer bullets (147gr) maybe getting into the thicker part of the brass, I have problems with that too.
Of the 9mm guns I have, a Storm Lake barrel has the tightest chamber and is what I have had problems with.
I am loading mostly range brass of many brands and have found a BIG variation in wall thickness, and even some steps.
Thickness at edge:

Deeper in:

Stepped:


.

 

[rfwobbly]

How did you become so good at problem solving if you've had ZERO problems to deal with in 22 years?

As I previously said, I had the exact same problems....

Truth be told, this is exactly the problem I got into back around year 2000 when I bought my first CZ. (See photo below.) Luckily, by profession and education I was able to apply Scientific analysis and Engineering measurements to the problem.

The bullet on the left has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 0.984" (well under the SAAMI minimum). The bullet on the right has a Max OAL in a CZ P01 barrel of 1.190" (which is actually longer than the mag will accommodate). How do I know this ? Simple, I made measurements.

As a design engineer working in a Fortune 50 research lab, I understood that I could sit there and cry about my CZ pistol, or learn advanced reloading techniques and solve the issues. Along the way I had many mentors and influential instructors, among them RC Model, Walkalong and many, many more THR contributors. To paraphrase Sir Isaac Newton... I am merely standing on the shoulders of giants.

Like my professors and employers, you call me "major league", but I am not a reloading expert. I have simply spent 20 years studying the reloading of one cartridge, the 9x19 Luger, and this entirely out of necessity. I know little about revolver cartridges and nothing of rifle cartridges. As we say in research, "Necessity is a Mother". Adapt and overcome.

Happy new year !

 

[rfwobbly]

The longer bullets (147gr) maybe getting into the thicker part of the brass, I have problems with that too.

This is a true statement.

Here's a scale model of what's going on inside the 9x19 cartridge....



The typical answer for working with short freebore chambers, when interference between the bullet and the rifling is encountered, is to shorten the OAL. This is fine when loading bullets that are themselves short. However, the case wall begins to thicken on all cartridge brass, and it is possible to seat the longer 147gr bullet so deep as to gets into that area of the case wall. When that happens the exterior cartridge wall begins to budge "amidships"... as seen in the cartoon below...



Like was said. 9x19 Luger is small, but that doesn't make it an easy cartridge to reload. The number one thing to understand is how YOUR bullet interfaces with YOUR barrel. No book can tell you this, you must measure it for yourself, because each situation is totally unique unto itself. Each brand of barrel is cut differently. Each bullet brand has a unique ogive shape. 1000 makers of 9mm barrels. 1000 different bullet shapes. That gives you 1000 X 1000, or 1,000,000 possible bullet-to-barrel fit combinations. Do the math !

Which gets us back to the previous statement... "Not every bullet sold can be reloaded for use in every barrel".

 

[jmorris]

That was a thought I had but a 1:4 failure rate would be odd if that were the problem then I looked up the bullet and from the photos the OP posted in #19 (noting the center round was long and had no effect on the problem) I didn’t think that was the issue. I would expect a substantial increase of force if it’s stepped cases at the same 1:4 rate, operating the handle.

 

[JJFitch]

I've had issues with certain bullet profiles not matching the seating stem profile and causing similar issues with bullets tilting.
Have you talked to the manufacturer of your dies to see what they recommend? A SWC profile or similar seating stem might solve the problem.

I shoot .357, 135 grain in 9mm and .38Spl., "plated round nose flat point" but similar to you bullet, if that makes sense. Dillon dies!

Smiles,

 

[roval]

not much to add on this thread but i use dillon dies with my 550 and i load 147 gr mainly and shoot them most commonly out of multiple czs steel and polymer and an xdm 5.25. no significant issues. some cartidges have a more pronounced bulge. my coal has a wider spread 1.110-1.120 but usually 1.117-1.119. the top of the bullet is not particularly uniform so i think a lot of the variation is due to that. brass is different makes but all work and feed. these are mbc hytek pc 147 FP but i have had the bulge with xtreme 147 rn plated and sns casting 147 hytek pc rn and flat point as well.

 

[Palladan44]

These were the most interesting 9mm projectiles I've ever worked with. They're definitely an "odd duck". They are the shortest 147 grain JHP bullet ive ever seen measuring at only .6400" long.
They were sold at American Reloading and are demilled Speer Gold Dot G2s. Another thing I noticed, is only about half of the projectiles have the elastomer filling in the hollow point cavity, the rest are smeared out, melted out, or just plain gone. It's quite soft stuff, and it's no surprise that half of it is missing. I never considered the hollow point cavity elastomer filling a need that I'd ever find necessary for my uses.
The only data I have to go off of, are involving Speer Gold Dots (originals) I wonder if the G2 bullets have the same length and profile? I didn't assume, so I started very low on the charge end, and an OAL of 1.1300" with 4.3gr of Longshot. With this combo, the powder reaches only about 80% case fill (beneath the bullet seating depth, not total)
My goal is to get a 1,000fps. or better out of my Glock 17L. Given that this is a heavy projectile with a tendency to not expand at lower velocities, I decided to use it in my longest barreled 9mm, and work it up to a "healthy" load.
The first 5 shots at 4.2 gr. Longshot were:
939
947
949
934
950
Recoil was pretty mild for 9mm, brass flung about 4'-5', and the primers looked the same as they did less the indentation. Accuracy was very good, a ragged hole at 10 yds. I could see some of the projectiles flying in the air....

I've read some pretty concerning writeups and reviews on the Speer Gold Dot G2, especially in the 147 grainer. I can't believe that a company like Speer would release the Next Gereration Gold Dot projectile, and have it perform sub-standardly...
Per a multitude of internet videos/articles, It often seems to not expand, even at close range and with no barriers or denim, and act like a FMJ. What gives? I believe that just a bit more velocity is required and they would begin to perform as intended. It just seems that from 3"-4" length barrels, this rounds is apparently not a good choice.

I chose the 17L to create this load for, and Longshot powder because this combo shows the greatest velocity potential. Im hoping to keep them accurate, and have enough velocity to expand reliably.