A bit of a mystery here. I've been loading some 9mm's for a while now with good results. Mixed cases, 4.8-5gr be-86, 115 gr LRN MBC pills,cci 500's, coal 1.065. Recently due to availability I had to switch to Wsp primers. I worked those back up and everything seemed fine. Now I am getting pierced primers, just barely a pinhole, but there. I don't understand, this load seems very mild, hell, 4.4 gr barely worked my slide. Am I jacked up and this load is too hot or is my firing pin a little too sharp/strong, or do wsp suck? Thought, comments, questions? Also, I've thrown out the pierced brass, but I can take pics of the other unpierced brass. I saw no obvious signs of over pressure.
9mm pierced primers
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markr6754
Member
I’ve noticed of the primers I’ve used, WSP appear to be the softest. I base this on the amount or depth of impression my primer ram makes, whether I load on the press or using the Frankford Arsenal Hand Primer. Using the same tools with the same pressure, neither CCI 400 nor Remington 1 1/2 appear marked by the process.
Having said that, I’ve never noticed any punctures in spent cases, or any deeper impression from the firing pins.
I don’t understand why you’d throw away the spent cases with pierced primers. After all, it wasn’t the brass that failed. When reloading, the other components would never know what happened. I only toss a case if something goes wrong during resizing...or the very rare split case. I have a split .380 ACP case on my desk at work to remind me that even when everything is done correctly, stuff happens. Great conversation starter.
Having said that, I’ve never noticed any punctures in spent cases, or any deeper impression from the firing pins.
I don’t understand why you’d throw away the spent cases with pierced primers. After all, it wasn’t the brass that failed. When reloading, the other components would never know what happened. I only toss a case if something goes wrong during resizing...or the very rare split case. I have a split .380 ACP case on my desk at work to remind me that even when everything is done correctly, stuff happens. Great conversation starter.
Charlie98
Member
When I first started loading 9mm for my BHP, I went from rounds that would not cycle the slide to primer flow and pierced primers in about .5grn (I was using Unique back then.) Case volume (read: COAL) is critical in the 9mm, even with slower burning powders... like BE86.
Too much powder in the case for the type of primer. Around 1999 I called Winchester about the new brass colored primers they were offering. Winchester had made them more sensitive to "combat off axis firing pin hits". Which was not bad, or would not have been bad, had not the primer cups been made thinner. I claim they were made thinner as all brass colored Winchester primers, be they rifle or pistol, pierce at loads that never bothered the old nickle plated Winchester primers.
I had this discussion in another thread. The poster was basically looking at all the other signs of pressure, which are physical signs, and absolutely unreliable indicators of pressure. And I am talking primer roundness, primer flatness, difficulty of extraction, etc, and he cannot believe that he has too much powder in the case because those other signs do not indicate high pressure. Regardless of the mystic pressure signs you believe in, pierced primers, leaking primers, and blown primers are positive proof of too much powder in the case. So, cut your loads.
Someday we will have cheap, affordable, pressure equipment (I hope) and the randomness, happenstance ,mysticism, and folly of physical signs of pressure will be revealed. Phillip Sharpe had a good section in his book of Reloading. He had a rifle load that developed a measured 100,000 cup, and yet when he passed a fired case around, everyone looked at it and claimed normal pressures.
I had this discussion in another thread. The poster was basically looking at all the other signs of pressure, which are physical signs, and absolutely unreliable indicators of pressure. And I am talking primer roundness, primer flatness, difficulty of extraction, etc, and he cannot believe that he has too much powder in the case because those other signs do not indicate high pressure. Regardless of the mystic pressure signs you believe in, pierced primers, leaking primers, and blown primers are positive proof of too much powder in the case. So, cut your loads.
Someday we will have cheap, affordable, pressure equipment (I hope) and the randomness, happenstance ,mysticism, and folly of physical signs of pressure will be revealed. Phillip Sharpe had a good section in his book of Reloading. He had a rifle load that developed a measured 100,000 cup, and yet when he passed a fired case around, everyone looked at it and claimed normal pressures.
Bat Rastard
Member
Reduce the charge, or increase OAL.
To further add to this. The reason I threw away the brass is because out of 100 rds i got 6 suspected pierced primers. I say suspected bc when held up to a light I couldnt see anything. So to prove they were pierced to myself, I popped the primers out and pulled the anvil out with a tooth pick and cleared the debriss out of the cup. Then I held the cup up to a light. From here I was only able to see light threw 2 of the 6. So 2 of approx 100 rds were pierced without no doubts. I do have the brass but the primers are not installed. Ive included a picture of some spent brass with the same load without a pierced primer. It is to be noted these cases have been used several times, probably 5th loading. One is with cci, the other wsp for contrast. Also, the reason for such short coal....the manufacturer....missouri bullet co recommends 1.080 due to the design. Years ago I owned a keltec pf9 with a short throat that I needed to load short for, so I stuck with my proven recipe. I do intened on lowerig my charge to 4.5 and seeing if it will reliably cycle over a large sample size. A little off topic, but years ago I had pierced primers with wsr primers in an ar15. I chalked that up to needing harder primers for the ar platform as that was a middle of the road charges as well.
Charlie98
Member
I really think your problem is over pressure with a combination of soft primers and too short OAL... but it doesn't hurt to check the details.
If you want to test the theory, load 5 or 10 of your cartridges, but stretch the OAL to 1.135" One other item is... I see you are using WCC (military) 9mm brass; very often military brass is slightly heavier, meaning case volume is reduced. Try your load in a standard commercial case, too.
rfwobbly
Member
You are correct to look at this. Primer punctures can burn up a firing pin in no time. It's the same as taking a cutting torch to the tip.
I'd start by measuring the height of the loose primers. It would only take one of two thousandths of height difference to present the primer in a more exposed position. Also dirty primer pockets might keep the primer at a higher seated position. Your choice to reduce the firing pin length was one I agree with.
WSP are not the thinnest cup; that award belongs to Federal. Winchesters are a certainly thinner than CCI, but considered in the "normal" range and usually give/have no issues.
Please tell us about...
• Primer pocket cleaning efforts (before primer seating commences)
• Inspection of finished rounds. Do you stack the finished cartridges in a plastic ammo box bullet-end-down ?? Then run your finger over the primers to spot "high" primers ?
I'd start by measuring the height of the loose primers. It would only take one of two thousandths of height difference to present the primer in a more exposed position. Also dirty primer pockets might keep the primer at a higher seated position. Your choice to reduce the firing pin length was one I agree with.
WSP are not the thinnest cup; that award belongs to Federal. Winchesters are a certainly thinner than CCI, but considered in the "normal" range and usually give/have no issues.
Please tell us about...
• Primer pocket cleaning efforts (before primer seating commences)
• Inspection of finished rounds. Do you stack the finished cartridges in a plastic ammo box bullet-end-down ?? Then run your finger over the primers to spot "high" primers ?
Can you get a picture from a bit of an angle? It would be interesting to see if the edges of the primers were still round. If you're not flattening primers on the way to piercing, that would tend to suggest this is not primarily a pressure issue. Conversely, if they're flat and pierced, that would strongly suggest a serious pressure issue.
I doubt it is the "primers"??
I have loaded thousands of 9mm with MBC 124 gr bullets With Win SPP
The MBC Small ball bullets needed to be seated short to function in my CZ but the "Parabellum" would work at longer OAL
Why are you using 1.06"? From the Alliant limited data you charge seems to be OK They have a max of around 6.0 for FMJ
What GUN are you using??
I have loaded thousands of 9mm with MBC 124 gr bullets With Win SPP
The MBC Small ball bullets needed to be seated short to function in my CZ but the "Parabellum" would work at longer OAL
Why are you using 1.06"? From the Alliant limited data you charge seems to be OK They have a max of around 6.0 for FMJ
What GUN are you using??
why don't you do a "plunk test" with your load and compare that oal to the one you are currently using. make sure it functions in the gun.
I bet you can run that load a little longer. lower pressure will result and your primer problem will probably go away.
luck,
murf
I bet you can run that load a little longer. lower pressure will result and your primer problem will probably go away.
luck,
murf
Blue68f100
Member
Contact Winchester with the lot number in hand. They may want them back to test. If they do they will replace all of your lot at a 2 to 1 exchange. They will also cover any repair that is needed it it cut up the breach face. I went through this about 10 yrs ago when they switched to the non-nickle cap.
Nature Boy
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I'm the OP in the other thread and this statement by @Slamfire is not an accurate representation of that conversation.
243winxb
Member
Brass problem-
I dont see the firearm used? An inertia firing pin type should not pierce primers.
WCC , crimped primer pockets? Primers not seated fully?
I dont see the firearm used? An inertia firing pin type should not pierce primers.
I did go back and re read that thread. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes, and ignoring what we don't want to hear. But I am going to say, regardless of primer type, if anyone is piercing primers, they have too much powder in the case. Cut the load.
Update w pictures and to answer questions. I went to the range today and shot 100 wsp and 50 cci's. The cci's were actually .2 gr hotter (5gr). This resulted in 3 pierced primers in the wsp flavor. I am using a new sig p320 xcarry. The reason for the short coal has been answered in previous posts. The primer pockets had the crimps removed w/ a dillon super swage 600. I do not clean primer pockets other than removing crimps from mil brass. I do check for high primers, they are seated just below flush, i use a handheld priming tool. If there was any confussion, the primers were not loose at all, before or after firing. It was noted today the brass was just clearing my shoulder. I believe my next step is to drop down to a 4.4 charge and see if that results in piercings. According to my notes 4.4 seemed weak but it did work the action and locked the last round to the rear. The 3rd picture contains the pierced primers in the middle.
243winxb
Member
Dillon
Primers can be seated flush to as much as .008" below the case head. See SAAMI tolerances
Not cleaning pocket may add to the problem.
243winxb
Member
Last edited:
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Might be to much powder for the short OAL but it sure does not seem like 5gr should be to much even at the shorter OAL
(but I may be out to lunch here)
You did the smart thing by backing off.
This was 124 @ 1.08
String: 5
Date: 7/23/2017
Time: 10:30:36 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1179
Low Vel: 1087
Ave Vel: 1132
Ext Spread: 92
Std Dev: 33
RMR 124 124 HP-NEW 5.4 BE86 1.08 OAl
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1121 139.004 345.967
1143 141.732 359.68
1087 134.788 325.299 (guessing this one was a bit light charge wise)
1134 140.616 354.038
1179 146.196 382.693
Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like the primer indents are pretty deep.
Can you compare some of cases to the same load shot in another gun?
Any pierced primers in a different gun?
(of course it could still be a pressure issue that went away in a different gun)
I don't believe in pushing because I would rather err on the side of caution but 5gr with a 115 does not seem that high, but you do need to factor in the shorter OAL, and 1.06 does
seem deep for an RN but I don't know about MBCs small ball it may have a blunt nose.
Do you have access to a chrono to try to check the vels on the ammo?
Won't tell you pressure but if vels are high you can be sure pressure is also.
Is the ammo from the same lot of BE86?
I had one lot that seemed about 10% hotter than the other two I had. (same vels at about .2gr less assuming my scale + chrono were telling the truth)
If one lot was mild say 10% below normal and the other lot was hot 10% above normal that might be causing issues.
In this day of smart phones and gadgets it would sure be nice to be able to get some kind of universal receiver (say $150) and Barrels (say $100 ea) and a sensor to be able to test pressure.
If someone could come up with something to the tune of $300-400ish with cheap swapable barrels I think there might be a market.
Either that or some place that would test your ammo for a reasonable fee. (of course they would have to deal with yahoos sending in stuff they know would be overpressure).
Hope you get it worked out.
Please keep us posted.
(but I may be out to lunch here)
You did the smart thing by backing off.
This was 124 @ 1.08
String: 5
Date: 7/23/2017
Time: 10:30:36 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1179
Low Vel: 1087
Ave Vel: 1132
Ext Spread: 92
Std Dev: 33
RMR 124 124 HP-NEW 5.4 BE86 1.08 OAl
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1121 139.004 345.967
1143 141.732 359.68
1087 134.788 325.299 (guessing this one was a bit light charge wise)
1134 140.616 354.038
1179 146.196 382.693
Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like the primer indents are pretty deep.
Can you compare some of cases to the same load shot in another gun?
Any pierced primers in a different gun?
(of course it could still be a pressure issue that went away in a different gun)
I don't believe in pushing because I would rather err on the side of caution but 5gr with a 115 does not seem that high, but you do need to factor in the shorter OAL, and 1.06 does
seem deep for an RN but I don't know about MBCs small ball it may have a blunt nose.
Do you have access to a chrono to try to check the vels on the ammo?
Won't tell you pressure but if vels are high you can be sure pressure is also.
Is the ammo from the same lot of BE86?
I had one lot that seemed about 10% hotter than the other two I had. (same vels at about .2gr less assuming my scale + chrono were telling the truth)
If one lot was mild say 10% below normal and the other lot was hot 10% above normal that might be causing issues.
In this day of smart phones and gadgets it would sure be nice to be able to get some kind of universal receiver (say $150) and Barrels (say $100 ea) and a sensor to be able to test pressure.
If someone could come up with something to the tune of $300-400ish with cheap swapable barrels I think there might be a market.
Either that or some place that would test your ammo for a reasonable fee. (of course they would have to deal with yahoos sending in stuff they know would be overpressure).
Hope you get it worked out.
Please keep us posted.
Mmmm. I havent had piercings with a p89 I have, however I havent tried that gun with the wsp rounds. This sig is new. Perhaps the firing pin is a bit long....if I get pierced primers at a lower charge it has to be the gun, whether its the firing pin, headspacing or whatever. I dont want to but a call to sig may be in order at some point.
No I do not have a chronograph.
Yes its from the same lot of powder.
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