9mm starline Brass; dont use in S&W Shield?

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RussellC

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Have always heard good things about Starline Brass. Visiting their site today and searching for 9mm brass, I saw this warning: "Not to be used in S&W Shield due to poorly supported chamber condition".

does anyone here know what the problem is? The upshot seems like the problem is with the pistol, not the brass. I WAS seriously considering this gun as a carry unit, now not so sure....

If this is problematic to the pistol, does anyone know if the .40 S&W version suffers the same "poorly supported chamber condition as the 9mm model? Looking at their 40 S&W page, I do not see the same disclaimer...

I hope someone can explain this. \anyone know about this condition? Or if it has been corrected, or at least plans to do so?

As always, thanks in advance.
Russellc
 
I checked their (Starline) site for 40 S&W and did NOT see the same warning, it must be something peculiar to the 9mm model. I guess now is the time to start in with 40 S&W.
Anyone even know what this problem described for the 9mm is?

Thanks for the response,
Russellc
 
It looks to me like a premature unlocking issue and not a chamber issue. If you look at the bulge on the fired cases, it is way forward of the feed ramp. That tells me the gun is unlocking whe the bullet is still in the barrel and the case is still pressurized while being pulled out of the chamber.
 
I've been looking at the S&W shield 9mm for some time, and this is the first I have heard of this. Hopefully it will be addressed, or as previously stated, I've been wanting some guns in 40 S&W anyway. Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Russellc
 
Now this is very odd indeed.:confused: I have a shield and will have to dig out some Starline Brass. I was not aware the Shield 9mm had poorly supported chamber?

Why would Starline Brass be any different than other brands??

"Starline Brass > 9MM
9MM Brass (Small Pistol primer)
9mm brass, 9 Luger brass, 9mm Luger brass, 9mm Para brass, 9x19 brass, 9x19 Luger brass, 9mm Parabellum brass, 9mm Glisenti brass, 9mm pistol brass
0.748 - 0.754 O.A.L.

9mm brass: also known as 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and 9x19mm. This cartridge is now one of the most popular pistol cartridges in the world. **NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN S&W SHIELD PISTOLS DUE TO POORLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER CONDITION**"
 
They don't want you to KB with their brass.
If a gun model has a problem with 9x19, I would almost expect a worse problem with .40.
If you aren't seeing bulged cases, then your gun may not have the problem. I have certainly found quite a few guppy-bellied .40 cases at the range.
 
I know with the non-Shield M&P 9mm's, there were/are reports that some individual pistols have a problem with early unlocking (mostly leading to inaccuracy). I have a 9mm M&P that does not seem to exhibit this problem, but I do note that the barrel drops from its engagement with the slide almost instantly upon slide retraction. I have also read that S&W will fix this problem if you encounter it. That problem apparently does not manifest with .40 versions of the M&P.
 
Has anyone been able to contact Starline directly about this? That would seem to be the logical start. Starline posted it, so they should have the reference to back up their claim.:confused:
 
918v said:
It's not.
Click to expand...
Stated more as a rhetorical question.

Ipso Facto, then every brand of 9mm brass would be a problem in the Shield;)


OT

There is a product safety notice on the Shields trigger. Guess they do not want to use the evil recall word yet!
 
True that, the upshot wasnt that there was a problem with their brass in that gun, but that there is a problem with the gun..."Poorly supported chamber."

Russellc
 
If there really was a problem with the gun, ammo manufacturers would post the same warning.

I suspect that Starline brass has a thinner web than other brands, and they're more likely to blow out when used in a chamber that does not fully envelop the brass.

I weighed a few 45 acp primed cases:

Starline (with primer) 83.1 grains
Winchester (with primer) 88.9 grains
CBC (with primer) 89.4 grains

Since the external dimension are almost identical, the weight savings of Starline brass can only come from making thinner cases - case walls or web. Perhaps Starline uses less brass in manufacturing their 9mm cases as well.

I'd weigh a Starline 9mm case to test my theory, but I don't have any of this brass in 9mm.
 
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You make the call??

9mm handload in Shield barrel Not the best pics but they are what they are. Looks fine to me.


DSC03114Small.jpg


DSC03113Small.jpg


DSC03112Small.jpg
 
**Update**

Well FWIW, I finally got through on the phone to SW (many hours of elevator music;))

Per the CS rep, The Shield is a fully supported chamber. Which by my pictures seems to be, so I now on to Starline to clarify what they say!:uhoh:
 
I just spoke with Hunter at Starline. He says they have tried o get a barrel but unable to. (Told him mine was for sale or rent:D)

Anyway they have received some complaints or feed back from some customers but also from Wilson Combat.(which I would give more creditability to)

I am sending him my pictures,

Also need to add that the website states "poorly" supported not Un supported. Above my pay grade and tools to determine how they measure the fine details of fit.

**NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN S&W SHIELD PISTOLS DUE TO POORLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER CONDITION**
 
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One would think that a major proscription such as this (NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE...) would be instantly defended with factual data by the company's customer service.

Complaints or feedback don't seem sufficient to warrant such an action. And I'm having trouble understanding what Wilson Combat has to do with reloading Starline 9mm in S&W Shield pistols.
 
The issue is with maximum and +P loads. Loads that work fine in every other brand and model of firearm show a bulge in the Shield. We are told that +P ammo in every brand of brass shows this bulge. We have not been able to obtain a Shield for testing from wholesalers or any of the local gunshops, and S&W has told us that we wouldn't be able to get a Shield from them this year. The initial testing was done by Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat in his personal firearm. We do not know if it is just some of the Shield pistols that bulge the brass or if every pistol will show this bulge with certain powder combinations. We decided to err on the side of caution and place a warning until we could do some testing of our own.
 
Starline, Thanks for the response.

I look forward to the results of your empirical testing once you locate a Shield. It's unfortunate that those who told you about this didn't send you samples of the cases that exhibited the bulge along with reloading & chrono data, or at least pictures of the cases. This results in you, out of an abundance of caution, having to take an action without the data in front of you. Especially since this problem doesn't seem to have been reported elsewhere on the blogosphere.

I note that Wilson sells 9mm +P. Are they using your brass?

And welcome to The High Road!!
 
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We did get samples from Wilson and we even went so far as to have the load pressure tested. The loads were hot but within SAAMI standards. Bill even sent samples of the same load in the same lot of cases fired in a Beretta 92, a Glock, and a M&P and none of them showed a bulge or any other pressure sign whatsoever. It doesn't seem to be a problem with standard loads and we don't think there is any problem with firing factory loads in the Shield, or using our brass once in the Shield. With our entire consumer customer base being reloaders, we know that you are going to expect multiple reloads out of our brass, another reason we put the recommendation on the website. If you have been using our brass in your Shield with no problems, and aren't getting any bulges, then you should be fine continuing with our brass. It may just be certain pressure curves in that gun that are the issue. As always we would be happy to listen to any feedback you have on this issue.
 
:what:....WOW....now that's costumer service. Right to the thread with an explanation. Awesome.
 
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