9X19 Reloading

[JayZee]

Hope all are healthy and safe.
Bought some powder and finally got my reloading setup. (Only good thing about the China Virus)
I have Blue Dot & Red Dot.
Using one pound of RD for 32/38SPC loads, maybe less. (Only 500 of each)
Other pound will be 9MM.
Have two pounds of BlueDot, using half for 10MM/40 and rest for 9MM.

I was setting up to start loading from my manual a 6.9-7.05/7.10gr charge of BlueDot(my Lee powder scale is accurate, just not sure if I am accurately reading it since it isn't digital)
The manual states 6.8minimum-7.6+ maximum loads.
So 6.9-7.0 is safe to me.
However, once I set my powder measure up for Bluedot. I realized the data was for a 115gr XTP.
I am reloading 114grain FMJ(hollowbase) bullets. COAL is not going to be correct given difference to 115gr XTP.

I looked and found no data for 115gr FMJ(rather 114grain) for BlueDot powder in my other manual. I did find COAL however. Shortest 115gr load was 1.077-1.169.
I measured/used some Fiocchi 9x19 115grain FMJ to compare and it spec'd out to 1.150.

So how should I proceed?
I know deeper seating=more pressure. Leaning load as long as will feed in my gun(try a few duds/no powder) to check chamber/magazine feed to keep pressure lower(deeper=pressure) and use the same data??


Rather compare this data to what others have found with BlueDot and 9MM and work from there.

Edit; Will a hollowbase versus flat base be better given a compressed load with a cavity to expand into is less likely than a flat wall in which it cannot expand?

 

[Hartkopf]

7.8 to 8.2gr Blue Dot with 115gr Speer CPRN #4712, 1.135 OAL. Speer nickel +p cases.

Not a ton of experience with this load but a couple hundred rounds have worked well so far.

 

[TonyAngel]

Why did you choose blue and red dot powders? I'm sure that someone will jump in and tell us about how they've been using blue or red dot powder for years for their 9mm or .38 or whatever. Those dot powders are actually formulated to be shot shell powders. Yes, they have other uses, but there are better powders to load 9mm and .38 with. Winchester 231, HP-38, Accurate No. 7 and all kinds of other ball powders that do well through powder drops and have VAST load data for loading pistol rounds.

Of course, it's a little hard to be choosy right now and sometimes you gotta grab what you can when you can, but given a choice, get yourself some powder made for pistol rounds.

When I first started loading, I was poor and started with 700x because my manual had a load for it and it was sold in half pound cans, which were cheaper. Pfft. When I got settled in at the local range and got friendly with some of the guys, they all asked, why are you using that? And that was my introduction to 231.

 

[fxvr5]

Why did you choose blue and red dot powders? I'm sure that someone will jump in and tell us about how they've been using blue or red dot powder for years for their 9mm or .38 or whatever. Those dot powders are actually formulated to be shot shell powders. Yes, they have other uses, but there are better powders to load 9mm and .38 with. Winchester 231, HP-38, Accurate No. 7 and all kinds of other ball powders that do well through powder drops and have VAST load data for loading pistol rounds.

I'll never understand why people slander some gunpowders. I prefer to judge a powder by performance.

Blue Dot and Red Dot are well known for their excellent performance in a wide range of handgun rounds. Here's a picture of a 45 Auto loaded with 10 gr of Blue Dot, 185 JHP, 15 shots in 1.18", 25 yards, gun in a Ransom Rest. Average speed was 1,000 fps.

 

[rskent]

I'll never understand why people slander some gunpowders. I prefer to judge a powder by performance.

Blue Dot and Red Dot are well known for their excellent performance in a wide range of handgun rounds.

And even if they weren’t, sometimes circumstances dictate that you use what you have. Or what you can find.

And sometimes it’s just fun to try stuff.

 

[FROGO207]

When loading Blue Dot in 38 SPL my most accurate load spewed a pile of "powder skeletons" all over the shooting bench. Enough that I felt the need to sweep it up after each range session. Blue Dot and lower pressure loads are not a good mix. Just sayin.

 

[lordpaxman]

I looked and found no data for 115gr FMJ(rather 114grain) for BlueDot powder in my other manual. I did find COAL however. Shortest 115gr load was 1.077-1.169.
I measured/used some Fiocchi 9x19 115grain FMJ to compare and it spec'd out to 1.150.

You should first determine your Max and Working COL for your gun(s). Different bullet profiles will have different Max COLs. Factory FMJ RN ammo like your Fiocchi usually has a longer COL because the profile allows it. If your 114gr hollow base is a round nose chances are you can load at a longer length.
There are threads that discuss determining your Max and working COL. Once you have that, you look at the published data and determine if your bullet is similar enough to a published load. If your working COL is greater than the published then you can use that data knowing your longer COL will result in lower pressure and most likely lower velocities. In other words you’re in a relatively safe zone.
Alliant has blue dot recipes for 9mm. I haven’t loaded blue dot so I can’t help on load data. Good luck!

 

[Zendude]

Check out the Alliant web site. Go to the Blue Dot powder page and click on the link for "View All Blue Dot recipes". There is one for a 115gr Gold Dot hollow point bullet. It has an OAL, but keep in mind that the same OAL with your FMJ bullets will likely result in a deeper seating depth (hollow point is a shorter bullet than FMJ, especially hollow base).

 

[Texas10mm]

Check out the Alliant web site. Go to the Blue Dot powder page and click on the link for "View All Blue Dot recipes". There is one for a 115gr Gold Dot hollow point bullet. It has an OAL, but keep in mind that the same OAL with your FMJ bullets will likely result in a deeper seating depth (hollow point is a shorter bullet than FMJ, especially hollow base).

Are you SURE about that? If both bullets are the same weight the hollow point MUST be longer due to the cavity.

 

[Charlie98]

When loading Blue Dot in 38 SPL my most accurate load spewed a pile of "powder skeletons" all over the shooting bench. Enough that I felt the need to sweep it up after each range session. Blue Dot and lower pressure loads are not a good mix. Just sayin.

That is my exact same experience... my problem was choosing the wrong powder (slow) for the cartridge (low-pressure target.) I hate BlueDot, but that's just because I misused it, it probably works as well as AA#7 and some other slower powders in the 9mm because it operates at a higher pressure, it would not be my first choice, however, for a number of reasons.

 

[FROGO207]

Blue Dot with full power 357 loads is a good choice. I also like it in full power 44 magnim. It just plain sucks with low pressure or ststarting loads. It needs pressure to burn clean IMO.

 

[Walkalong]

Well, you'll never be able to double charge a 9MM case with Blue Dot.

While they would not be the first powders I would think of for those calibers, Red Dot will work in .38 Spl, and Blue Dot will work in 9MM. I am fairly sure, IIRC, we have folks here who use them in those applications.

A person could do worse for sure.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Blue Dot in 9x19 will induce a nasty flinch in short order.

The giant fireball and rediculous report is like a bomb going off 3 feet in front of you.

Quite entertaining for onlookers though.

 

[Hartkopf]

Blue Dot in 9x19 will induce a nasty flinch in short order.

The giant fireball and rediculous report is like a bomb going off 3 feet in front of you.

Quite entertaining for onlookers though.

I like watching my own flame throwing fire ball! It actually helps me focus. If I see every flame, I kept my eyes open and didn’t blink. When I started shooting, I’m sure I never would’ve seen the fire ball.

 

[Tcruse]

Are you SURE about that? If both bullets are the same weight the hollow point MUST be longer due to the cavity.

The shape of the nose makes the HP usually measure shorter. Most FMJ have a rather pointy nose shape.

 

[Hartkopf]

The hollow point usually has a longer bearing surface which must be taken into account when reloading. (Load data usually accounts for bearing area because of more friction and increased pressure).

OAL length is almost the same between these two 230gr 45ACP bullets. FMF is actually .006 longer.

 

[fxvr5]

Are you SURE about that? If both bullets are the same weight the hollow point MUST be longer due to the cavity.

Dead Wrong.

Hornady:
115 XTP JHP = .545"
115 HAP JHP = .543"
115 FMJ = .551"

Sierra:
115 JHP = .510"
115 FMJ = .535"

Speer:
115 GDHP = .526"
115 TMJ = .572"

need more?

 

[rfwobbly]

So how should I proceed?
I know deeper seating=more pressure. Leaning load as long as will feed in my gun (try a few duds/no powder) to check chamber/magazine feed to keep pressure lower (deeper=more pressure) and use the same data??

There are really 2 sets of OAL constraints set on any auto pistol.
• There is the "Industry Limits" (both Max and Min) set by SAAMI for 9x19 Luger, which you can look up on-line.
• Then there are what we might call the "Safety Limits". The Max for this is set by the bullet-to-barrel interface. This is determined by the physical restrictions your barrel forces on your bullet. That will be different for every gun and every bullet, and is really a number you need to determine. Any longer than this and the gun runs the risk of firing OOB, which can be very dangerous.

For the Min, as you have said, you really don't want to load any shorter than the OAL used in your load recipe. It's simply not safe for a novice to go shorter than the OAL because chamber pressure builds so fast and unpredictably, especially in cartridges like 9x19.

The following cartoon tries to summarize this visually...



► That's the hard Science of reloading. After you find all those limits, then the Art of reloading kicks in and you are free to work anywhere withing those boundaries. After awhile you'll begin to learn what feeds good in your gun. But again, it will only apply to your gun, that's why I call it Art.


Hope this helps.

 

[cfullgraf]

As I remember, during the 1980's and early 1990's, Blue Dot was a choice of powder to get greater performance from 9x19. My Speer No. 10 manual has Blue Dot loads for most of the bullets they listed.

I used it some in 9x19 but more often in 38 Super and 38/45 Clerke.

Now a days, I feel there are better powders on the market than Blue Dot for 9x19 but I'd use it again if the need arose.

 

[Average Joe]

Been using Red Dot in shotshells and pistol loads for years. Makes it easy with just one powder. .380 , 38 spl, 9mm , 357mags (light loads)

 

[rfwobbly]

The entire "Dot" series is good stuff, it's simply dated in it's physical characteristics.

 

[LiveLife]

9x19 ... 114 gr FMJ (hollowbase) ... Blue Dot & Red Dot ... how should I proceed?

Methodically - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

• Determine Max OAL using the barrel
• Function test for Working OAL using the pistol/magazine
• Conduct full powder work up referencing all available load data
• Fine tune for accuracy by incrementally decreasing the OAL (without compressing powder charge)

For me, load development process is same whether using flat base, concave base or hollow base bullets.

I can't comment on Blue Dot as HS6/AutoComp/CFE Pistol were slowest burning powders I have tested with 9mm - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-124gr-fail-to-feed.863458/#post-11388786

For 9mm, I prefer to use Red Dot/Promo/IMR Target to W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol burn rate powders for target loads and BE-86/WSF burn rate powders for full power loads.

As to Red Dot for 9mm, once I finish my current 8 lb container, I will continue buying Promo as it is same burn rate as Red Dot and meters better (I am on my 5th 8 lb container of Promo with 3 on the shelf ... I guess I like Promo ) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

Promo has become my general purpose range blasting/training 9mm powder that works well for blow back carbines. As to Promo accuracy with 115 gr bullet, here's recent 8 shot group with RMR 115 gr FMJ FP which is plenty accurate for me to use as GP 9mm powder - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11219888

I looked and found no data for 115gr FMJ

2004 Alliant load data has 115 gr FMJ loads for Red Dot and Blue Dot - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

• 9mm 115 gr FMJ Red Dot OAL 1.120" Max 4.5 gr (1,150 fps)
• 9mm 115 gr FMJ Blue Dot OAL 1.120" Max 8.0 gr (1,190 fps)

And Speer load data - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...m_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

• 9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ Blue Dot OAL 1.135" Start 7.7 gr (1161 fps) - Max 8.5 gr (1258 fps)

I referenced Red Dot load data to conduct Promo load development and with RMR 115 gr FMJ loaded to 1.130", 4.1-4.2 gr of Promo produces lighter recoil loads that works well in my Glocks and M&P Shield with 4.4-4.5 gr of Promo producing factory white box-like recoil load that is slightly more accurate - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-more-accurate-loads.841097/#post-10919894

Will a hollowbase versus flat base be better given a compressed load with a cavity to expand into is less likely than a flat wall in which it cannot expand?

For most 115 gr FMJ profile bullets, loading with 4.5 gr Red Dot to 1.120" OAL will result in essentially 100% case fill.

I did some measuring of bullet lengths to see how much longer the Federal 115 gr hollow base FMJ was compared to other brand FMJ and got the following (Left to right Zero, RMR, Winchester, Everglades and Federal):

(Calibration check - Calipers/micrometer were checked with pin gages and Zero 115 gr FMJ bullets measuring .550", .5505" and .551" in lengths were verified same with FA dial calipers, HF digital calipers and Brown & Sharpe micrometer. 20 sample bullets were measured)

FYI, database of bullet lengths - http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html

• Zero 115 gr FMJ: .550" typical (Flat base, range .549" - .551")
• RMR 115 gr FMJ: .564" typical (Flat base, range .563" - .565")
• Winchester 115 gr FMJ: .569"-.570" typical (Flat base, range .567" - .575")
• Everglades 115 gr FMJ: .569"-.572" typical (Concave base, range .567" - .574")
• Federal pulled 115 gr FMJ: .594"-.597" typical (Hollow base, range.587" - .601")

If you have concern over compressing Red Dot with longer hollow base FMJ, you can reduce the powder charge to 4.0-4.2 gr and/or use longer 1.135"-1.150" OAL.


As to the purpose of hollow base bullets, in our emails and posts by Jay Phillips (no longer with Berry's MFG) made on THR indicated hollow base option was used to lengthen the bullet base after larger sizing of .356" was used to enhance accuracy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/berry-plated-bullets.532751/page-3#post-6630850

To me, 9mm FMJ/RN profile bullets, especially 115 gr FMJ/RN with shorter bullet base, benefit from deeper seating OAL and hollow base bullets from longer bullet base that will seat deeper where the case wall is thicker to improve neck tension likely with more consistent chamber pressure build - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

 

[Zendude]

Are you SURE about that? If both bullets are the same weight the hollow point MUST be longer due to the cavity.

Always need to measure to make sure. Usually true in jacketed bullets, but I suppose in cast lead, it’s much more variable.