A different fire forming thread

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kmw1954

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Just received a gift of 170 pcs of Hornady 223 brass that was all once fired from the same gun but I can't answer if it is all the same lot but it is all the same type. So this brass was not originally fired in my rifle. Because of this and from comments made in a different thread the subject of fire forming brass to this barrel was brought up.

Some have suggested that it takes more than a couple firings to get brass to fully form to a barrel. Now I know a few of my bench friends that are firing Match brass such as Alpha, Lapua and Peterson all shoot a load or two thru it before they really start working up loads.

So what is everyone's experience and what should be expected?
 
For use in a semi-automatic it will need to be full length sized. If you are using it in a bolt action. I would full length size it and fire form it to your rifle and then only neck size it after.
 
Considering that in some senerios the guys get 3 total firings with 90s in 223 before the brass is toast I would conclude BR techniques might not apply well to other disciplines. I would further say any use of components strictly to fire form is beyond my budget at this point. Unless your making a very big change, br to dasher or the like, load and shoot for score.
 
Considering that in some senerios the guys get 3 total firings with 90s in 223 before the brass is toast I would conclude BR techniques might not apply well to other disciplines. I would further say any use of components strictly to fire form is beyond my budget at this point. Unless your making a very big change, br to dasher or the like, load and shoot for score.
The statement about 3 firings before brass being toast made me laugh.
I tried following bench rest procedures when I first started loading for more than hunting accuracy.
I quickly learned their loads are several grains above my comfort zone.
I totally agree with you.
I have a safe load that was worked up in my heavy and light brass with both being inside my node. So I just load it and roll on.
 
I'm kind of like AJC1, some benchrest techniques don't produce noticeable results in other disciplines. I would just full length size it and go with it. Unless you're shooting a really accurate custom rifle I wouldn't be to concerned with fire forming.

But, I've read your other threads and know that you are doing a lot of experimenting. It might be interesting to see any difference.
 
So if your in the mood to test, running a fireformed group vs a sized group would give you the data. What may be more interesting is annealing a third group and seeing if the softer brass will form in one loading. A full power loading couldn't hurt.
 
A handful of things here:

*It goes without saying, but item 0 here is to not mix headstamps. Precision competition ammo will not be made in mixed headstamp lots of brass.

**Item zero point b would then be - don’t overthink it. The differences we’re talking about here are all on the razor edge. As an example - I don’t worry much about fireforming my brass for PRS competition. I’ll start with a batch of 400-1000 pieces each season, do my barrel break in and load development with ~150-200 pieces, and usually start shooting matches. For some batches, I’ll practice enough before the first match of the year to get all of my brass fireformed ONE firing, but usually not.

1) Quite often, new brass corresponds to new barrels, and new barrels will need 100-200 rounds to break in, so doing load development too early just means you have to do it again. The shift between virgin bore and seasoned bore is usually small, but sometimes significant enough to change loads (node moves).

2) Yes, brass will spring back more and not quite represent the actual chamber dimensions when it is new/young. When sending out for custom dies, it’s best to send 3x fired brass because they best represent the chamber dimensionally. (This has absolutely nothing to do with overpressure benchrest loads, just a metallurgical feature of brass and steel). The shift between virgin brass and fully fireformed brass is usually negligible, but sometimes significant enough to change loads (edges of nodes shift). This tends to be much less influential than barrel break in.

3) The above truths leave us in a hen and egg paradox - we have to shoot SOMETHING to get our barrels broken in and get our brass fireformed. Personally, I USED to do a quick 10 round fouling, cleaning between each, 10 more fouling, then a 30 round ladder. This would point to a node, then I’d load ~100 rounds of that load to break in my barrel. I reconfirm my nodes before almost every match anyway with 34 rounds fired, so I track my nodes throughout the life of a barrel and across all firings of my brass’s life. Within component panics like this, I accept a little more risk and will shoot those 100 break in rounds during a low level competition.

4) Starting with non-virgin brass will mean your brass is work hardened more than virgin brass, so it may take 3-4 firings to fully fireform rather than 2-3. Whenever I change barrels/chambers with brass, I check head diameter to see if I need to small base size (original chamber larger than new chamber, or under-massed gas gun), and I’ll typically anneal to bring the neck and shoulder back in check.

5) I never mix lots or firing counts of brass if I can avoid it. I always anneal if I’m doing so, and only mix known quality brass, and I still confirm case weight and internal capacity. I’ll also check seating pressure consistency and POI and MV consistency before mixing - loading the same load (after capacity sorting and Annealing) into each lot and testing replicate ladders and replicate groups. As an example: @South Prairie Jim just shared in his Long Range Load Development thread that he identified a difference between two lots of brass in his Benchrest ammo which was causing variability in his muzzle velocities, and inducing extra vertical dispersion downrange.

6) Annealing is its own topic here, but I’ve mentioned it several times. Different firing counts will yield different levels of work hardening, which will yield different seating pressures, different neck tensions, and different grip pressure - meaning different primary ignition. Mixed lots will be more prone to stray with multiple firings, and differing firing counts will obviously introduce variability - so annealing is pertinent for this kind of plan to reuse and potentially mix lots of brass.

7) Node confirmations - as mentioned, I check my nodes before matches, 10 rounds to foul and 24 rounds for the test (triplicate of 8 charge weights). If my brass or barrel changes, I know it before I load for the match. Usually, nodes don’t shift much, and usually velocity doesn’t shift much, but if and when they do, I can see it before it bites me in the ass at a match.

So in your shoes, I’d be sorting by headstamp, sorting by internal capacity, Annealing, sizing to headspace in my rifle, comparing nodes & POI, and then deciding if mixing in the donor brass is worth doing.
 
So in your shoes, I’d be sorting by headstamp, sorting by internal capacity, Annealing, sizing to headspace in my rifle, comparing nodes & POI, and then deciding if mixing in the donor brass is worth doing.

I go along with all you've stated and have been instructed before on much the same.
Now put all the benchrest talk aside because I am not there, friends I have are and yes at times they talk over my head! I also am not attempting to make Benchrest grade ammunition. Just control what I can that doesn't cost anything but time. I admit I am still learning what is beneficial and what it a waste of time.

The reason for this question is only because of the brass that was gifted to me. It is all the same load Hornady but unknown if the same lot. I doubt it but could be. It was all fired from his AR.

While resizing this brass and trying to set the shoulder bump using a Hornady comparator I am finding some that are all over the place. Like .010" from shortest to longest. So I have been sorting into 2 piles. Though most are varying just .003"

So the question remains will this stabilize with just one of two firing in my rifle? At any rate all of this will be kept separate from all other brass.
 
I have had different lots of Hornady brass be quite different in internal capacity. They were multiple years apart, and it only shifted my node by .2grn, but the speed with the same charge was different by 30-40fps. So like I said, I’d check the capacities and sort that batch to make one uniform lot (or multiple lots).

Since the once fired headspace varies so much, I would bet on an undermassed gas gun - and I’d measure the case heads. If NOTHING else, grab some of your fired brass from your bolt gun chamber, lock your calipers at the case head dia, and sort the new donor brass by sliding it through the calipers. If it fits, it ships, if not, it needs small base sized.

And again, anneal…

After that, yes, that lot will be sufficiently uniform and will fireform to your chamber within a couple of firings (assuming your dies actually fit your chamber, and aren’t also undersized).
 
that lot will be sufficiently uniform and will fireform to your chamber within a couple of firings (assuming your dies actually fit your chamber, and aren’t also undersized).

Being naive on the subject, does the chamber "act" as the die during the fireform process......does it then proceed to the "neck sizing only" scenario, if the brass is only for 1 specific gun...?
 
Being naive on the subject, does the chamber "act" as the die during the fireform process......does it then proceed to the "neck sizing only" scenario, if the brass is only for 1 specific gun...?
Neck sizing and sizing without bump are different as using a full length die manages body size while just neck sizing only manages neck tension. If one were to want a custom die made I contend that neck only sizing would be desired. In all other senerios I full length size with no bump until it's required. The neck will look funny until it's grown to the chamber length. I can't prove it but the unsized section of the neck helps center the round until its full grown.
 
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