a difficult situation

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I have a decision to make-

I called one of my uncles and filled him in on the idea of involving a lawyer. his feeling is, the guns aren't worth jepordising his relationship with his sister over, and I got the basic idea that I would be the black sheep if I went ahead with this plan of action.
unfortunatly, I think my involvment with her is beyond repair anyway, for a few other reasons not related to current events. my hope is that the idea of involving the court system will be enough to get her to give them up. beyond that, I can only hope my uncles will understand my "crusade", so to speak.

hmm... a family I'm on the rocks with anyway, or salvaging our heirlooms and carrying out my grandpa's wishes?
 
No one has any right to walk away with anything, and that includes your Aunt. If you did such a thing the situation would become far worse, and it's possible criminal charges might be brought against you and/or any others involved.

This is why you (and if possible any other heirs) need to talk to an attorney, and quickly! Given the circumstances you have described I believe he or she would apply to a court for an emergency injunction that would freeze your Aunt in her tracks. He might also request that the court appoint a different executor, and that your Aunt be held personally responsible for disposing of any property contrary to law and/or court rules. The primary strength of your position is that she proposes to distribute (or destroy) property that rightfully belongs to the combined heirs - without specific instructions in your grandfather's will to do so.

Usually the correct procedure in this sort of situation is to inventory all of "grandpa packrat's" belongings (including firearms) and then sell them at auction. The money would then be divided between the heirs. If the Aunt objected concerning the guns she could receive cash from the estate equal to her share of the gun's value.

If an attorney representing you (and possibly other heirs) does what I think he or she will do, your Aunt will be served with an injunction that freezes things in place, pending a hearing. That in itself may be enough to take the wind out of her sails. I suspect that rather then hire her own lawyer and fight it out in court she’ll wash her hands of the whole thing – which is what you want.

In the meantime, do nothing but consult with an attorney. Monday morning is not too early...
 
Ok so your family doesn't want to take it to court. Then I suggest doing what someone else suggested. Find an LEO that can help you. Have her give the guns to him to "destroy." Then just have him give them to you.

Or you could take it to court yourself. But what right do you have to the items? I don't know how the courts would rule for a grandchild.
 
I don't know how the courts would rule for a grandchild.
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Excellent point. What state was your grandfather living in when he passed away? Was this your father's father or your mother's father? Is he or she still alive?
 
If you REALLY want them, why not offer her an extraordinary amount of cash for them
Everybody loves money.
Money can even make people go against their deepest principles.
 
If you REALLY want them, why not offer her an extraordinary amount of cash for them
Everybody loves money.
Click to expand...

There's something fundamentally wrong with having to buy what already belongs to you. And if the guns were not intended for him, then it would be stealing.

Best advice, get a lawyer. Have the court order her to preserve the estate, including the guns, then distribute it fairly.
 
The guns have value and must be appraised and valued as a part of the estate. If she has them destroyed or turned in, she will have to pay the estate back for their value. If there is no will, the estate should be divided evenly between the children. I am not an attorney, but I believe the above to be the case.

- Sig
 
I would speak with an attorney and tell her that she must not destroy the guns and they belong to the members of the family and that you will take her to court if she does not give them to the family members that want them.
 
Having served as an executor of an uncle's estate with one of my cousins, I got an interesting education so I will share some with you. However, you should bear in mind that I was not in NY and laws do vary but general principles apply in most states.

First, as many other posters have counseled you, a lawyer is an absolute requirement in this matter. If you really value the guns and that the estate be properly settled, get a probate lawyer on Monday morning. Of course, this does require that you are ready to live with the resulting family difficulties so you have to decide your path and proceed accordingly.

Second, by law, your grandfather died intestate, that is without a will, at least to the best of your knowledge as presented here. The probate lawyer will explain the specifics as they apply to NY law but, generally, it means the court will divide the property according to a specific formula contained in state law as regards being related to the decedent (your grandfather). One of the functions of the law and the court at the time the estate is entered into probate is to appoint an executor. Since you are the one with the lawyer doing the legwork, you could request to be the executor or you could allow the court to name one. That could end up being your aunt or even the lawyer you have retained.

Third, there are two reasons for probate settlement of estates: title and taxes. Title relates to the authority to legally pass title of the decedent's posessions to the proper person. This is especially important when homes and other such real property are involved as the person receiving the property needs a proper title in order to be able to legally hold the property. Taxes are the interest of the state in all these matters and the lawyer is best situated to explain that detail to you with respect to NY state law and federal law.

From what you have related in the thread, your aunt does not have any legal authority to dispose of any of your grandfather's property, either personal (the guns) or real (home, land, etc.). The ball is in your court so you must choose to do the right thing or the expedient thing. If you choose the expedient thing and let your aunt proceed as she desires, your main revenge may come when she cannot dispose of the real property (if any) because she tried to do an end run around the law. This will send her to the courts anyway in order to get a declaration as an executor at which time the court would require an accounting of the estate and she will be standing there to say she just gave it away as she pleased. It will be a moment of sweet revenge so don't miss it!

BTW, IANAL so all this is worth exactly what you paid for it but a little time and money at a lawyer's office next week would be worth the price of the education.
 
I only read the OP, so if I am repeating someone’s advice, I apologize. If it is as important to you as it would be to me, simply tell your aunt that if she does not keep the guns functional and “in-the-family”, your relationship with her is over. It would be most convincing if your uncles joined you in this proclamation. If this is not compatible with your paradigm, ignore my advice.
 
Wow, that is horrible. Your aunt needs to know that these are not just guns, these are family heirlooms. Things that should be passed down through family. I hope everything works out for you and you save those firearms from being destroyed.
 
I was an executor of a will, and the probate was nasty.

Know that the executor has a legally enforceable fiduciary responsibility to the estate.

This means she can take no action that intentionally, or through negiligence reduces the VALUE of the estate. Executors are REQUIRED to expend due dilligence in preserving the value of the estate.

Guns are valuable, both monetarily and as heirlooms.

She cannot simply turn them in/throw them away/whatever because she doesn't like them.

I think you can insist on them being appraised, and advise her that she will be held accountable for their value to the estate.

Oh, and get a lawyer to reality check me, 'cause I ain't one.
 
I say get a lawyer and get the guns distributed to "family" as stated by your late grandfather, he didn't say "destroy my house, my car, my clothes and my guns" He wanted his belongings passed along to his family and that's what is important. I've been trying to get my father to make a will for a long time now for just this reason, I have two crappy bro-in-laws that have an eye out for his tools 95% Snap-On and his guns roughly 20-30 rifles and pistols. I don't think they deserve a dime from him and I know he feels the same way but it's not on paper. So get that lawyer and I'm hoping your situation works out for the best. good luck man.
 
You have a choice to make. You can get a lawyer, and fight for the guns, or you can stand back, and allow your aunt to dispose of them. consult with a lawyer, give him fifty bucks for a consultation if needed. Then you will know where you stand. A nasty letter from a lawyer may be enough to make her pass the guns around the family. It may have to go to court. Talk to a lawyer, and then count up the cost in family good will and financial and historic value to you. And choose the way you wish to deal with it. Reality demands that you consult a lawyer first.
 
Unfortanetly most decent attorneys bill out around $300 an hour. Better to tell her you wont demand any assets except the firearms try to point out you already own firearms she is accomplishing nothing by denying them to you. If need be find any sort of leverage you can against her i.e. get a private eye to look up her records and such it will cost about same as a lawyer.

Another important thing is anti's know absolutely nothing about guns so tell her she can have the firing pins removed so they cant fire. Then just buy new ones its not free but its a whole lot better than the alternative.
 
Unfortanetly most decent attorneys bill out around $300 an hour.
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And note that the estate will almost certainly pay for her lawyer - at least that's been true for my relatives that have been executors. I don't know if the estate will pay your legal costs if/when you win. Whether the estate pays only for her lawyers, or both her lawyers and your lawyers, at $300/hour those guns could get real expensive.

And I'm pretty sure that there's no way for you to prevent the destruction - I think that all you could do is force her to take the market value of the weapons out of her share of the estate. She gets to divide up the property into equal shares, by market value. I don't think that you can sue about individual items unless they are bequeathed to you - if you are an heir, you may be abel to sue to force an equitable distribution of assets.

Let us know what you find out. I am not even sure that you have any standing to sue - is your father/mother (whoever is the child of the grandfather sill living)?

At any rate, I would be very interested to hear what you find out from the lawyer.

Mike
 
good morning folks!

I'm in a much better state of mind today, having had a discussion with my aunt. I mentioned that I had been doing some research, and consulting with "knowledgeable freinds"(you guys). I asked her if she knew that she can't legally dispose of any property, if she did she would be held financially responsible and would have to pay back the estate. I'm not completely sure if I explained that correctly to her, but I think I did ok.
anyway the end result was her backing down, and saying "you know what? whatever. you guys can do whatever you want with them. it's not a big deal, jeez."
I think this was best case scenario, because I never really had to threaten to get a lawyer, I just explained my understanding of applicable laws, which are laws I think she knew about, but didn't know that I knew.
I am slightly bothered that months of trying to convey grandpa's wishes did nothing, but me mentioning legal obligations pushed her over the edge. but my recently inherited guns will help me get over it:D
hopefully today, or as soon as my two uncles and I can get over there, we will divy up the guns. I will take some pics and post them up so you guys can see what you helped rescue.
I appreciate everyone who contributed, you guys really helped to defuse a situation that's been on my mind for months.
 
Usually a first consultation with an attorney does not cost $300. You explain the circumstances of your case, and they tell you what your chances are, what options you have, what the probable cost will be if they precede, and then ask for a retainer if you decide to go ahead. They cannot represent you without some retainer, as that is what hires them.

If the Aunt is distributing Grandpa’s property without specific bequeaths in the will she may be in trouble right now, the guns not withstanding. An attorney may find some serious problems with the will’s format. If Grandpa’s signature was not witnessed and notarized it may not have any legal standing. There are a lot of issues here that you can only address through the advise of an experienced lawyer. The sooner you do this the better.

This was written before I read post #44. I hope that things work out, but frankly I hope both you (and maybe the Uncles and Aunt) still talk to an attorney. I don't think this Aunt has any idea about what she may be getting into, and for that matter, getting you into. For example, the estate is probably liable for taxes, and those have to be accounted for, as they are likely based on the total value of the estate. The attorney's fees can be paid by the estate. In this day and age, and particularly in New York, this sort of thing cannot be handled between yourselves.
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I'm glad we could help. Most people don't want to come within 100 feet of a lawyer. I'm glad the little talk helped and I'm glad we could help get you guys there.

Plus now if all works out maybe working out the family relationship will work.
 
It is all well and good that you got her to stop and think but you need to read and heed Old Fuff's post above. Important questions as to proper transfer of ownership of guns under NY state law remain to be answered as well as tax questions. As I pointed out in my original post, if there was any real property, there will need to be a probate court involved for the title to transfer properly. You need to begin to think beyond the moment and the items you care about as it is not just about the guns.

Good luck to you!
 
Hi folks,
sorry it took me so long to post back, I wasn't near a computer yesterday evening.
as it turns out, we can't pick up the guns yet, until "all the paperwork is in order". I was informed(rather bitingly, I might add) that everything was being transfered legally, and yes, they needed to be appraised first.
so it seems as if everything is going the way it's supposed to. She seems to know what needs to happen to tranfer the guns, so perhaps she knew she couldn't dispose of them the way she wanted to, and just wanted to make us sweat. Perhaps the point of this whole fiasco was just to have something to hold over our heads, a control issue.
I believe I will still consult a lawyer to make sure I'm going about it the right way. though we don't get along, she's handled everything else fairly. as long as she's also doing it legally.
 
SNT, if it comes down to "taking turns to pick", make sure you get that Colt SAA on your first go round. It's got history in addition to the other obvious value. Joe
 
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