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A discourse on No-Knock Warrant reform?

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atek3

atek3

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Cleveland OH
Most threads regarding no-knock warrants turn into a polite shouting match between LEO's and affiliates and people who aren't so enamored with cops. Words like "cop-bashers" and "JBT's" get tossed around...all in good fun. Well not for the people wounded or killed in no-knocks policeman or otherwise. I want to open this thread to talk about ways of reforming the system to decrease examples of

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=963767#post963767

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67694&highlight=no+knock

http://home.earthlink.net/~ynot/victims.html

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html

and all the other "no-knock warrant served, people killed" stories we read everyday.

There are some who would say "why have no-knocks, if the police want to search a residense, let them knock on the door and present their signed search warrant detailing the places and things to be searched."

And other's who'd say "if we stopped the drug war and respected the 2nd amendment, they wouldn't need to conduct no-knock raids".

But those two are not what I'm looking for. We have a drug war, we have gun bans, we have no-knock raids. What steps could be taken to limit the abuse of said warrants?
For example, the penalty for conducting a raid on the wrong address, instant termination no questions asked, no not pass go or collect 200 dollars. Things like that.

atek3
 
What steps could be taken to limit the abuse of said warrants?
Click to expand...

Have Judges only issue no-knock warrants if the situation really justifies it.

No knock warrants put both officers and citizens in increased risk.

That risk isn't justified to catch someone with small quantities of drugs, and larger opperations can't be disposed of quickly in most cases.

If they're serving a warrant for someone suspected of growing weed is there really a need for a no-knock warrant? It's not like they're going to flush the plant down the toilet.
 
The only justification I can think of for these warrants is a known hostage situation. And I mean a live human hostage...not evidence needed for a drug conviction.
 
The problem with this discussion is going to be simple and is eximplified by Fix. Nobody on here with the exception of a few LEOs even knows what a no knock actually is or what it takes to obtain one. The fact of the matter is that those warrants are already almost impossible to get and have to have special authorization by the judge or in some cases judges. Even in a no knock situation, the PD will still be announcing their presence and will still be highly overt. The only thing that is different is the 10 seconds that you use to actually make entry. In a regular warrant, you stand there outside the door waiting on the suspect to kill you through the wall or door while in a No-Knock, you announce yourself and go in.

I am sure that this is going to be interesting...stand by for some serious BS about things that people know nothing about.
 
Thank you for illustrating my point. Do you even know what is required to obtain a no knock warrant? I do because I have been to see the judge and asked for warrants. Do you know what the time difference is between the two? Do you know what the policy if the agency requesting it is? Do you know what limitations the court places on those warrants? Oh and last but not least, there is an entirely different system to master for the Fed Gov. When you can answer all of the above, you can have an intelligent conversation about the use of No Knock warrants. Until then, you are just LEO bashing.


That was my point, few if any of the posters that will jump in here have the substantive knowledge with regards to the subject that would be required for them to participate in a discussion on this topic. It would be like trying to have a discussion about algebra with someone that had never taken math.
 
Not wishing to be in any flame mode here at all ..... but, seems very often that a ''no-knock'' is executed at dawn ..... supposed bad guy/guys probably asleep.

If it happens to be a mistaken address and in fact good guy is woken to sound of door collapsing in (not having been able to stand a chance of hearing the mentioned 10 second announcement!) .. then things can get tricky. Good guy justifiably assumes he is under attack and prepares to defend himself ...... not even knowing if shouts he hears are LEO's or others purporting to be LE.

The invaders are then probably confronted by ''man with gun'' .... who seeks to defend self ... Boom ... goodbye to ''threat'' ...... oops!

How in heck is this gonna be avoided ... ??

I can see that those executing a warrant are under considerable risk of bullets coming their way at times but .... the concern has to work both ways.
 
No knock warrants, should never be used. I can agree to there exception of hostage situation. Thats it.


The war on Drugs has given us a new breed of LEO. The JBT. The war on drugs excuse is used almost as much, close, as OFFICER SAFETY and ITS FOR THE CHILDREN. Think about it people. Dont you think, with all of our might and power, that if we wanted to, we could stop about 85% of the drugs entering the US. But you see, here in lies the rub. IF we stopped all the drugs that enter, say the Houston ship channel, then all the police departments that receive federal money to fight the war on drugs would not need the federal money anymore. NO federal money, no new toys for the departments. Like this will happen.

with the exception of a few LEOs
Click to expand...

I am sure that most of our members are well versed in use of force, more so that most LEO's. Your arrogance does not seem to have any limits FedDC.
 
Ummm, I know I've said this before and stop me if this makes too much sense, but if you want to end the "abuse" why not simply pass a law? Just a couple of proposals that I've thrown out before and throw out YET AGAIN:

Simply raise the standard for the issuance of a "no knock" via statute. End the issuance of "no knock warrants" for all investigations involving evidence relevant to narcotics and narcotics dealing, unless human life is at stake.

Or, if "the wrong address" is a concern, simply triple damages and include attorney fees in a Bivens style tort claim for Fourth Amendment claims and lower the standard to negligence instead of the current reckless standard.

I realize that this is THR and people like to scream and shout about stuff (venting after long day in office), but if people are concerned there are a host of remedies that would render this a moot issue overnight. We can save the screaming and shouting about bears, pumas and magic unicorns.:D
 
KBR, I am glad we disagree. Coming from a true cop hater it is a compliment.
 
Coming from a true cop hater it is a compliment.
Click to expand...


Not a cop hater, I happen to come from a family of cops, was a cop myself. I just happen to hate people, they can be cops or whatever, that abuse other peoples rights.

Also, I pretty much hate those that believe they are superior to others, you , by what you have posted, fit the bill. Maybe you would like people to goosestep and salute you nazi style when you enter a room.
 
With an attitude like that whereby you would willingly compare men and women that die trying to make out cities safer to a bunch of nazis that slaughtered millions of jews, it is easy to see why you are no longer a cop. Thank god for improved hiring standards.

And Fix, you still didn't answer any of my questions...
 
And Fix, you still didn't answer any of my questions...
Click to expand...

Your questions are not relevant. I don't care about the procedure, and don't care to argue with you over it. I am more concerned with their very existance...not how they are attained. I could care less if you have a wall of red tape four miles thick in front of you. If there isn't a human hostage, no knock warrants are not worth the cost...period. Agree to that, and then we can debate the red tape associated with acquiring said warrant to intervene in a hostage situation. Clear enough for ya?
 
A good point about discussing algebra with someone who has never taken a math class, but not if you consider the fact that we see very few news stories about someone factoring a polynomial incorrectly and ending up shooting grandpa COM as he racks the slide of his 12-gage in the middle of the night.

Just because I don't know how they work, it is still concievably possible that I might know they are a bad idea altogether.
 
The hiring standards have not improved. You, by your actions have proved at least that. The line of cops I came from, taught me that all a badge means is that you have sworn an oath (look up the word oath) to stand up for those who can not stand up for themselves. Respect others, because you come from the populace, and have sworn to protect the populace. YOU have stated, by accepting your badge that you will run in to danger, at a moments notice, to protect the innocent, not harm them with tactics and excuses of officer safety. If you are overly concerned about your safety, the get a job at a florist, unless you are afraid of a little prick from a rose branch. You just dont seem to get it. The majority of complaints aboout abuse of power by the police stem from the police departments adopting a military stance, instead of protecting people. It is not the citizens that have caused this us vs. them rift, it is the police. I left law enforcement because I saw way to many incidents of abuse of power, and guess what, those who abused the power are still there, and have been promoted and cover for the newer officers when they abuse their badge. LEO's need to be held to a much higher standard, if you assault someone, i dont care if you have a warrant, if you use way to much force, you are guilty of assault. YOU should be put on leave, not paid, arrested for the crime you are suspected of, and let a jury decide your fate. Just like the rest of us citizens.
 
FedDC
Seeing as how you fail to meet your own standards, you must consider yourself a LEO basher. You see, there are 50 states in this country and not all of them have the same laws on no knock warrants. And not all the judges in each state grant warrants under the same circumstances. Also not all the LE agencies in each state have the same policies in requesting said warrants.

I also find it rather interesting that you never stated your views on no knock warrants.

Personally, I believe that no knock warrants put the public at risk; and since LEOs are public servants, their existance shouldn't endanger the law abiding public. If the LE community can go three years without a mistake regarding warrants (everything from wrong addresses to not finding anything) then I'd be more than happy to allow the warrants to be served. But until then, no knocks are more trouble than they're worth.
 
Here's all I have to say about No-knocks

I originally wrote this in response to something on another forum, so it's not a direct response to anyone in this thread. I think it articulates the objections against NKW's pretty well:

Regardless of whether or not no-knock warrants are allowed by the Fourth Amendment, they are a bad idea because when a mistake is made, both the victims and the police are morally and legally justified in using deadly force against each other. That is a lethal contradiction.

If I am a law-abiding citizen, I have no reason to believe I'll be no-knocked. I know criminals do home invasions and sometimes dress up like police. If my home is invaded at o-dark-thirty with crashing, yelling, and apparent gunshots, I therefore assume that it is a criminal home invasion, which must be defended with immediate and deadly force.

If the invaders are criminals, then defense is the right choice. If the invaders are police, then submission is most likely the right choice (agents of the government will argue as much, anyway). By executing a no-knock raid, you have put me in a Catch-22. Since I am law-abiding, I assume criminals are more likely and I defend myself.

You say that criminals like to talk big, but don't have the will to kill a bunch of officers. I'll agree since I have basically no experience with them. The whole point of thinking about self-defense and training is to have that will when you need to defense yourself. In Cooper's book, "Principles of Personal Defense", he emphasizes the moral indignation one should feel when attacked and harness that feeling into an anger and will to win. This is diametrically opposed to "tend to chicken out and do what the nice safety officer is telling them to do" and more like "The true willing will inflict massive and decisive damage on the "team" of friendly "safety officers" -- only we won't know it's "officer friendly."

As the WY sheriff who taught part of our CCW class said "The right to self-defense always exists - even if it a city that is attacking you." I think that covers it from a moral perspective. From the legal perspective, John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529 said, "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." -- In other words, lethal force is legally justified against illegal arrest.

By design, no-knock warrants intend to surprise their victims when they are most vulnerable and in "condition white" They further attempt to confuse and disorient them with explosives and other devices such as 120 lumen lights to make accurate perception and judgement by the victim impossible. This fact alone refutes the inevitable reply that the victims should be able to recognize their assailents as agents of the state and comply. There is no time.

When a mistake is made, the only salvation is that a raid executed by professionals ought to completely surprise its victims before they have time to act. But your dogs might have been pre-emptively "hushed", your kittens stomped, or your wife caused to miscarry.

If this post is offensive, I do not apologize. It does not come close to expressing my offense and rage that no-knocks enable the possibility that I could, through no fault of my own, be put in a situation in which the best personal outcome I could hope for would be to kill a bunch of cops - as opposed to my family being raped and murdered in front of me.

If no-knock, dynamic warrants are going to continue to be issued, an innocent homeowner victimized by a prima facie errant justice system ought to find himself criminally innocent and the recipient of a large civil payment, while the entire chain of command involved in planning, signing, and carrying out the raid ought to be the defendants in a multiple-count criminal trial - no different than if they had been career criminals doing a home invasion.
 
FedDC, please help me out

I would like more info on how the procedure works so that I can form an intelligent opinion. I probably know just enough to be dangerous.:D

I am suspicous of the whole idea but am willing to learn. I think fix's idea of a hostage is a good place to start the discussion from. I will tell you up front that I think the War on "some" Drugs is one of the biggest threats to liberty this country faces so if your justification is to preserve evidence for that I would never support this type of raid. The potential threat to innocent people is just too high.
 
With an attitude like that whereby you would willingly compare men and women that die trying to make out cities safer to a bunch of nazis that slaughtered millions of jews, it is easy to see why you are no longer a cop. Thank god for improved hiring standards.
Click to expand...

Ummm, kicking in doors at 5 am and shooting dazed homeowners to seize a bag of pot isn't making our cities safer. It is in fact WAY more representative of the tactics used by the einsatzgruppen to punish the enemies of the state in Germany. However, godwin's law does get invoked, so FedDC is right and all the peons are wrong.

atek3
 
Longrifle-

Good question, you are the first person to actually ask how it works instead of just criticizing. Good for you!

Here is how it works, generally. First, there must be probably cause for a standard search or arrest warrant. This is the big hurdle and for the purposes of this discussion, lets say that it is a Federal Agency that is in looking into drug trafficking. They will have conducted an rather exhaustive investigation that probably took months if not years into this location. Confidential informants will have made controlled buys and will be able to give a description of who and what is inside as well as the defenses such as punji pits, dogs, IEDs, false doors...etc (Don't laugh, I am not making that up). After you get PC for the warrant, you have to look at how the warrant is to be served from a tactical perspective. Goal one is the safety of the innocent bystanders and the officers followed by the suspects...the property. When the lead agent who is doing the planning looks at the house to be hit, he has to decide what kind of entry needs to take place, for example is it something that the SWAT team needs to do or can standard agents do it. If it meets certain certain criteria such as known violent felons inside, people that have stated their intent to kill the police, armed, potential hostages...etc then that agent may bump the warrant up a notch and request that the SWAT team do the warrant.

Then, SWAT will examine how they need to conduct the raid in order to do it safely. If it is that dangerous, then standing outside waiting on the bad guys to load their glocks is not a good idea. A standard warrant requires a wait time of around 30 seconds outside in the line of fire before you can make entry. LOTS of officer get killed waiting outside, most recently in Memphis where officers were shot while they waited after knocking.

So, after the SWAT guys decide that it is high risk and they need to do a no knock, they will get the agent to go before a US Magistrate and he will lay out his case for the special warrant. The Magistrate will ask a LOT of questions...could this be done another way, is this the only way to get the suspects and evidence, is there the possibility of hostages, what is your agency policy, why now, what do we hope to gain from this, etc etc. If he agrees and that is a big if, he will set out a specific time that he wants that warrant served (usually a window) and he will state that the agent MUST call him when the warrant is served to give him a full report. All of this must also be confirmed with the US Atty who would be handling the prosecution who will ask even more questions bc he is the guy that decides whether to follow through on the charges. He can also say no if he feels it is a bad option. If all of that has been approved, the agency still has to approve the final plan where supervisors will ask a LOT more questions and they can nix the whole thing.

So, it has been reviewed by about 10-15 people that all have to concur. Now, the warrant is going to get served. There are rehearsals and everybody gets geared up. They roll up, make entry, but they still knock and announce. "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT" and they continue to do so all through the house. The goal is speed because if you give the bg time to respond, he will come up shooting. The goal is to secure the entire house before anyone can react and it works like a charm. Naked sleepy people don't fight! Having caught people naked and sleeping, I can tell you that the last thing they think about is fighting. It keeps the suspects as well as the officers safe and prevents a hostage situation.

The procedure is similar at the local level, DA, Judge, maybe district court judge...etc.

The thing I think most folks fail to realize is that there is a TON of scrutiny that goes into getting and serving one of these warrants. They are very very rare and when they are used it is in the most extreme of cases where there is a known threat. That is why I fail to see how people can be so adamant about them...they are so unbelievably rare! Personally, I think they are underutilized and could do a lot of good. In most cases, the suspects are not coming to the door anyway, so standing there waiting on them is a waste of time and creates an opportunity for them to get a gun, take hostages, and destroy evidence.
 
atek3-

I would have to disagree. It sucks that that guy got shot, but maybe he shouldn't live in a house where drugs are being sold...and I bet there aren't any drugs being sold out of that house now, so yes it is safer.
 
Drugs aren't safe?

Compared to what?

Being a cop?

Driving on the interstate?

Smoking cigarettes?

Oh, you mean SELLING drugs isn't safe.
 
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