A lot of folks do that.
A few 357 mag loads chronied from my 2.75" speed six
- Thread starter R.W.Dale
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MCgunner
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Try some Buffalo Bore. Heavier the bullet, better the energy in a short barrel, too. Those UMC 125s are the best I've seen out of a short barrel for that light weight of bullet. Normally around 400 ft lbs from a 2" gun, though you have a little longer barrel. I shoot 140s, myself, Speer 140s over 17 grains of 2400, 550 ft lbs from a 2.25" SP101. Better accuracy than the 125 grain stuff, too.
.357 Sig is okay compared to short barreled .357s, but my 6.5" Blackhawk can toss a 180 grain XTP at 1400 fps for 785 ft lbs. Same load shot over 1300 fps from my SP101 with 662 ft lbs (heavier is better for energy). The Sig is NOT in the magnum class IMHO, more of a 9mm +P+. The Sig can't do anything its .40 caliber parent can't do.
.357 Sig is okay compared to short barreled .357s, but my 6.5" Blackhawk can toss a 180 grain XTP at 1400 fps for 785 ft lbs. Same load shot over 1300 fps from my SP101 with 662 ft lbs (heavier is better for energy). The Sig is NOT in the magnum class IMHO, more of a 9mm +P+. The Sig can't do anything its .40 caliber parent can't do.
lharrell79
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Wow MCgunner, your 180 XTP is skootin out of that snubby. What kind of a charge are you using?
R.W.Dale
Member
Again guys the point in me adopting the rem 125 sjhp is to have a carry load that I can get just about anywhere at any time in quantities I can practice with that offers true 357 magnum performance, getting away from $2 a shot super special mail order ammo that I'll never practice with.
intercooler
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I haven't done testing on Underwood's 158's yet but his 125's are Nuclear. I got 1550 FPS average out of my 4" pipe.
He has been working on the 158's and might be there now.
BTW... I get the same 1300 FPS out of the Federal 158's as 67.
He has been working on the 158's and might be there now.
BTW... I get the same 1300 FPS out of the Federal 158's as 67.
But can a Golden Saber still expand AND penetrate successfully at 1500fps or will it fragment?
The 158grain offering with the Gold Dot bullet may be a better choice unless the Golden Saber design can handle that kind of velocity.
I'm legitimately curious.
-Jake
The 158grain offering with the Gold Dot bullet may be a better choice unless the Golden Saber design can handle that kind of velocity.
I'm legitimately curious.
-Jake
R.W.Dale
Member
Probably not. But who pushes the GS that hot?
By Remington's numbers the GS is loaded about 200 fps slower than the SJHP depending on barrel length and is why folks like it as a "midrange" load for lighter snubbies.
I am not a fan of 158 grain 357 for SD especially in a snubby. Most all loadings have too low a MV and as a result expansion is poor and penateation is too deep. IMO save the 158 grainers for the deer woods.
http://www.underwoodammo.com/357magnum125graingoldensaberboxof50.aspx
Ask and ye shall receive!
But yes, when it comes to snub guns in .357 a 125gr is preferred. In .38 Special I prefer the 158gr.
-Jake
R.W.Dale
Member
I see.
Here's my take on the Underwood loading.
What exactly is 200 fps going to make 357 do that it hasn't been doing to bad guys for decades?
Here's my take on the Underwood loading.
What exactly is 200 fps going to make 357 do that it hasn't been doing to bad guys for decades?
Certaindeaf
member
There's probably a formula/app for that. It takes 45fpe to kill a man.
I agree.
I just enjoy seeing what is possible with modern bullet designs and powder blends within the art of cartridge crafting. (As long as pressures are kept within the realm of responsibility mind you).
A 125gr JHP at 1400-1500fps from a 4" barrel spells disaster for two-legged foes.
But this is about snubs... Regardless, at 1250-1300fps the cartridge is certainly no slouch there either!
-Jake
R.W.Dale
Member
This is where these new boutique ammo makers raise my eyebrow and make me say "hmmm"
There are no magic manufacturer only powders of some perfect burn rate between the dozen other similar powders that's going to allow 200 more fps in a handgun cartridge loaded to SAAMI Max without doing one thing.
That's right raise pressure. Anytime you see that list of guns that ammo SHOULDN'T be used its a big clue.
intercooler
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Don't be scared.
Thank you so much for this thread, Mr. Dale. I have been thinking about this very thing for over the last 6mos. since I got my Ruger KLCR .357mag..I have read, read, and re-read everything applicable to this/your topic. The one that stuck out was by M.Ayoob, Sanow and Marshall stating IIRC, "the Winchester/Remington .357mag. 125gr. SJHP was the most effective one shot stopper than anything else, even .44mag,etc. at 96%". These gentlemen speak from years of experience of street level evaluations. Now, I am going to shoot up (practice) with all my "exotic cartridges" and start practicing and carrying either the Remington or Winchester 125gr. .357Mag. for SD in my Ruger. Thanks again, now I can by extra ammo with the money I will be saving.
R.W.Dale
Member
UPDATE:
I chronied some more of the 125 sjhp ammo from the first post only this time from a 5" s&w m60
These things rock from a longer barrel. The 5 shot string went as follows
1540,1516,1545,1571,1557 feet per second!
This pushes over 650 ft lbs from a 125g bullet.
I chronied some more of the 125 sjhp ammo from the first post only this time from a 5" s&w m60
These things rock from a longer barrel. The 5 shot string went as follows
1540,1516,1545,1571,1557 feet per second!
This pushes over 650 ft lbs from a 125g bullet.
HadEmAll
Member
The 125 grain .357 magnum Express load differs from the UMC load in that the Express is in a nickle-plated case, and uses a cleaner burning, lower flash powder.
I've chronographed both out of my 4", 3", and sub 2" Rugers, and will post data later. Too difficult on my Ipod.
I practice with the UMC, and carry the Express.
Good post Mr. Dale. I think my chronograph results will jibe with yours, and cover other barrel lengths.
I've chronographed both out of my 4", 3", and sub 2" Rugers, and will post data later. Too difficult on my Ipod.
I practice with the UMC, and carry the Express.
Good post Mr. Dale. I think my chronograph results will jibe with yours, and cover other barrel lengths.
R.W.Dale
Member
Good deal. That confirmed what id read about the difference in the two loads. For now ill stick to the umc purely for logistics but will pick up a box of the express to have on hand and evaluate should I run across it.
HadEmAll
Member
These .357 magnum chrono results are from a 4" GP100, a 3 1/16" SP101, and a < 2" LCR. All Rugers. They are 5 shot averages.
Just for grins I'm also posting .38 Special +P load velocities for factory loads out of the LCR and using the same bullets.
.357 magnum loads are the Remington Express and UMC 125 grain SJHP and the Speer 125 grain Gold Dot JHP.
.38 +P loads are the UMC 125 grain SJHP and the Speer Gold Dot 125 grain Gold Dot JHP. Comparing the cartridges side by side, they appear to be the same bullets.
I have discovered that chronographing these loads on a 90 degree F day, and the same loads on a 55 degree F day, give different results. I had never thought about it before. I discovered it months apart naturally, as they occurred in different seasons.
So where I have readings for a load at both temperatures, I'm giving it. Some loads I only have at one temperature.
Anyway.............
.357 Magnum loads........
Remington Express 125 grain SJHP .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 90 degrees -1451 fps - 587 ft/lbs ME
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1375 fps - 528 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 90 degrees - 1375 fps - 528 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1322 fps - 488 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - 55 degrees -1245 fps - 432 ft/lbs ME
UMC 125 grain SJHP .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1384 fps - 534 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 90 degrees - 1367 fps - 521 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1334 fps - 497 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - not tested
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1348 fps - 507 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1333 fps - 496 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - 55 degrees -1210 fps - 409 ft/lbs ME
Equivalent .38 Special +P loads............
UMC 125 grain SJHP .38 Spcl. +P
LCR <2" - temp not noted -910 fps - 231 ft/lbs ME
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain JHP .38 Spcl. +P
LCR <2" - temp not noted -869 fps - 211 ft/lbs ME
As you can see, the Express and UMC loads perform about the same. The Express load is in a nickled case, which can help extraction, and burns cleaner with less flash.
You can buy the Express load in 50 round boxes, but have to shop for it. It is only produced on occasion, so sometimes the online retailers are backordered.
I carry the 125 grain Express load in all my .357s, but carry the Speer Gold Dots in speed strips for reloads. They have no exposed lead like the Remingtons, and feed into the cylinder a little easier.
Lastly, these light revolvers, especially the LCR, recoil savagely with the magnum loads. I worry about a bullet walking out of the case and tying up the cylinder. I've never had it happen to me, but have heard of it happening to others.
When I ordered 500 of the Express loads, and 500 of the Speer Gold Dots, I immediately dumped them out and ran each round into the crimping die of my .357 mag die set. I used the best looking round as a model. Gave me peace of mind, and only took a couple of hours on my old RCBS Jr. press. Did it all during one 2 hours TV movie. I also did this for the UMC loads I bought at WM.
I love the .357 magnum, even in short barrels. They perform much better than most suspect.
I do hope I never have to touch one off inside a building, though.
Just for grins I'm also posting .38 Special +P load velocities for factory loads out of the LCR and using the same bullets.
.357 magnum loads are the Remington Express and UMC 125 grain SJHP and the Speer 125 grain Gold Dot JHP.
.38 +P loads are the UMC 125 grain SJHP and the Speer Gold Dot 125 grain Gold Dot JHP. Comparing the cartridges side by side, they appear to be the same bullets.
I have discovered that chronographing these loads on a 90 degree F day, and the same loads on a 55 degree F day, give different results. I had never thought about it before. I discovered it months apart naturally, as they occurred in different seasons.
So where I have readings for a load at both temperatures, I'm giving it. Some loads I only have at one temperature.
Anyway.............
.357 Magnum loads........
Remington Express 125 grain SJHP .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 90 degrees -1451 fps - 587 ft/lbs ME
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1375 fps - 528 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 90 degrees - 1375 fps - 528 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1322 fps - 488 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - 55 degrees -1245 fps - 432 ft/lbs ME
UMC 125 grain SJHP .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1384 fps - 534 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 90 degrees - 1367 fps - 521 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1334 fps - 497 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - not tested
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain .357 magnum
GP100 4" - 55 degrees -1348 fps - 507 ft/lbs ME
SP101 3" - 55 degrees - 1333 fps - 496 ft/lbs ME
LCR <2" - 55 degrees -1210 fps - 409 ft/lbs ME
Equivalent .38 Special +P loads............
UMC 125 grain SJHP .38 Spcl. +P
LCR <2" - temp not noted -910 fps - 231 ft/lbs ME
Speer Gold Dot 125 grain JHP .38 Spcl. +P
LCR <2" - temp not noted -869 fps - 211 ft/lbs ME
As you can see, the Express and UMC loads perform about the same. The Express load is in a nickled case, which can help extraction, and burns cleaner with less flash.
You can buy the Express load in 50 round boxes, but have to shop for it. It is only produced on occasion, so sometimes the online retailers are backordered.
I carry the 125 grain Express load in all my .357s, but carry the Speer Gold Dots in speed strips for reloads. They have no exposed lead like the Remingtons, and feed into the cylinder a little easier.
Lastly, these light revolvers, especially the LCR, recoil savagely with the magnum loads. I worry about a bullet walking out of the case and tying up the cylinder. I've never had it happen to me, but have heard of it happening to others.
When I ordered 500 of the Express loads, and 500 of the Speer Gold Dots, I immediately dumped them out and ran each round into the crimping die of my .357 mag die set. I used the best looking round as a model. Gave me peace of mind, and only took a couple of hours on my old RCBS Jr. press. Did it all during one 2 hours TV movie. I also did this for the UMC loads I bought at WM.
I love the .357 magnum, even in short barrels. They perform much better than most suspect.
I do hope I never have to touch one off inside a building, though.
HadEmAll
Member
You should let Corbon know about that incident. It pretty much guarantees that I will always recrimp any new factory .357 loads I buy. I didn't like the looks of some of the crimps even on the Remington Express rounds.
Incidentally, I believe it was the Remington Express 125 grain and the Federal Classic 125 grain .357 magnum loads that the Marshall/Sanow had rated at the top of their "one-shot stop" "study". Some give that study no validity.
You used to be able to buy that Federal load in 50 round boxes, but have only seen it in 20 round boxes in recent years.
Incidentally, I believe it was the Remington Express 125 grain and the Federal Classic 125 grain .357 magnum loads that the Marshall/Sanow had rated at the top of their "one-shot stop" "study". Some give that study no validity.
You used to be able to buy that Federal load in 50 round boxes, but have only seen it in 20 round boxes in recent years.
The M.Ayoob/Sanow "study" has been subject to much criticism, and from what I have read recently rightfully so. Much of it's privy info seems to have been manufactured either by the authors or the invisible supplier. Who knows? It looks like the "heavier" ( discounted by the study ) cartridges have more validity than it has been getting.
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intercooler
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Possibly old news to some but picked up these at the LGS today. Their 10mm's are loaded pretty good and wanted to try these. Will post back results when I get them!
From what I read they have some real pop! I will be updating that sheet when I test them.
From what I read they have some real pop! I will be updating that sheet when I test them.
Yes, you are right. It was the Federal .357mag.125gr, not Winchester. As far as the "study", I believe it is more accurate than any "gel/denim test". They (M.Ayoob, Sanow, Mitchell et al) were relating "actual events and outcomes", not hypothetical, if valid.
Because of "separation" from all the .357mag cartridges I have (CorBon DPX, Hornady CD, Winchester WB 110gr.-tested yesterday, not excessive on 5th round, but noticeable) I have loaded Winchester .38sp +P 125gr in the Ruger KLCR for now. And after more research, I have on the way some Speer Gold Dot .38sp+P 135gr Short Barrel, and a box of Speer Gold Dot .357mag 125gr to test. Both are specially made to prevent case separation in small revolvers. We will see. Speer products aren't overly priced either.
Because of "separation" from all the .357mag cartridges I have (CorBon DPX, Hornady CD, Winchester WB 110gr.-tested yesterday, not excessive on 5th round, but noticeable) I have loaded Winchester .38sp +P 125gr in the Ruger KLCR for now. And after more research, I have on the way some Speer Gold Dot .38sp+P 135gr Short Barrel, and a box of Speer Gold Dot .357mag 125gr to test. Both are specially made to prevent case separation in small revolvers. We will see. Speer products aren't overly priced either.
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