A firearm's purpose is....

[Ru4real]

I was tired of hearing a gun's purpose is to kill, because I knew better. I believed a firearm's function was to launch a projectile, and that's all. Shooting paper is not a failure of gun function, so I thought.

Is Ross's .585 Nyati legal to own in USA?

Here is the legal definition.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer, or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Term “destructive device” means
(A)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas
(i)bomb
(ii)grenade
(iii)rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces
(iv)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce
(v)mine
(vi)device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses

(B)any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

 

[LiveLife]

A knife's purpose is to cut.

A firearm's purpose is to send bullet out the barrel consistently and accurately.

Shooter's purpose is to hit the intended target.

 

[bikemutt]

A firearm's purpose is to project force, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[AlexanderA]

A firearm's "purpose" is subjective, and it is not legally relevant. Purpose is in the mind of the owner / possessor. It is not inherent in the firearm itself. Some guns are used for self defense, some for collective defense (military), some for hunting, some for target shooting, and others are just to be looked at (collectibles). All these are "purposes."

 

[MedWheeler]

The definition of "firearm" quoted above includes the term "weapon."

So, what is the purpose of a "weapon?" I imagine the "legal" answer to that comes into play. The definition of something and its purpose are not necessarily the same.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Wait...firearms include destructive devices?

And destructive devices include a "rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces"

So this:
https://www.kohls.com/product/prd-2...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CL_6-ZuAstoCFREYgQod_1AAOg
Is legally a firearm, marketed to kids? It can hold more than 1/2 cup of water.

I am obviously not being serious here, but this is why legal definitions are so tough to do. Never look to a law book for a common sense explanation.

 

[Ru4real]

The legal definition prohibits bores larger than a half inch in diameter.

Is a .585 legal, and if so, why?

 

[Ru4real]

Wait...firearms include destructive devices?

And destructive devices include a "rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces"

So this:
https://www.kohls.com/product/prd-2...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CL_6-ZuAstoCFREYgQod_1AAOg
Is legally a firearm, marketed to kids? It can hold more than 1/2 cup of water.

I am obviously not being serious here, but this is why legal definitions are so tough to do. Never look to a law book for a common sense explanation.

I looked to the book to see if firearm definition makes sense. And it does, mostly. You're example doesn't meet the legal definition, I don't believe. (Unless you've found how to make water an explosive somehow)

 

[Ru4real]

A firearm's "purpose" is subjective, and it is not legally relevant. Purpose is in the mind of the owner / possessor. It is not inherent in the firearm itself. Some guns are used for self defense, some for collective defense (military), some for hunting, some for target shooting, and others are just to be looked at (collectibles). All these are "purposes."

So you and I agree, it seems, with one caveat. Function is what it does, purpose is what you choose to do with it. I edited my original post replacing purpose with function.

Keeping this in mind, a counter to the statement "Guns are designed to kill people..." can be "Guns are designed to launch bullets and you choose where to put them."

 

[entropy]

(Unless you've found how to make water an explosive somehow)

Add soduim.

 

[denton]

A firearm's purpose is to please its owner.

 

[LiveLife]

I am pleased only if my POI is same as POA.

A firearm's purpose is to send bullet out the barrel consistently and accurately.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Legally protected uses of firearms in Tennessee:
Self-defense
Marksmanship and firearms training for those eligible to volunteer for military, National Guard, etc. service
Hunting
Defending livestock from predators
Pest animal control
Recreational shooting sports
Possession as curio, collectible, heirloom, ornament, keepsake.

My family has owned and used guns for all those traditional and lawful purposes.

The first two are in the state constitution Article I Section 26. The others in penubras and emanations in court rulings, attorney general opintions, and statements of legislative intent.

 

[WestKentucky]

A gun is no different than any other device. True is was manufactured to do the things firearms do, but that is truly irrelevant. It's no different than the $4 basketball I bought in 2005 to use as an air bladder to pop a dent out of a fender, and then used as a float for the front end of an atv by putting it inside the nose of the frame before airing it up. Was it any less a basketball since it never got dribbled or hurled at a hoop?

 

[SharpDog]

I was tired of hearing a gun's purpose is to kill, because I knew better. I believed a firearm's function was to launch a projectile, and that's all. Shooting paper is not a failure of gun function, so I thought.

Is Ross's .585 Nyati legal to own in USA?

Here is the legal definition.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer, or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Term “destructive device” means
(A)any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas
(i)bomb
(ii)grenade
(iii)rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces
(iv)missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce
(v)mine
(vi)device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses

(B)any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

Actually a great definition. The purpose of a firearm is to launch a projectile. 'nuff said

BlackPowder Firearms ... yadyada with Black Powder

Smokeless powder firearms ... yadayada with smokeless powder

Suppressed Firearms .... yada yada with an atennuated report

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Looking at dictionary definitions of "purpose" and the synonyms listed for each definition:

1. An object to be reached; a target; an aim; a goal.
(target): aim, goal, object, target
2. A result that is desired; an intention.
(intention): aim, plan, intention
3. The act of intending to do something; resolution; determination.
(determination): determination, intention, resolution
4. The subject of discourse; the point at issue.
(subject of discourse): matter, subject, topic
5. The reason for which something is done, or the reason it is done in a particular way.
(reason for doing something): reason

Sounds like a purpose is more an attribute of the user, rather than an attribute of the object being used.

Saying the purpose of a gun is to kill is making the dumb means an active doer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

No one is addressing the OP's legal question.

The OP asked a question:

....Is Ross's .585 Nyati legal to own in USA?....

Taking the question to be whether a rifle chambered for the .585 Nyati is legal to own in the U. S., the answer is: probably not, subject to possible exceptions.

First, the .585 Nyati is a cartridge based on the .577 Nitro Express but adapted for use in a bolt action rifle. The bullet is .584" in diameter (according to one source I found).

But let's look at the law:

1. 18 USC 921(a)(3), emphasis added:
   
   

   (a) As used in this chapter—
   
   

   (1)...
   
   (2)...
   
   (3)"firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device....Such term does not include an antique firearm....​

   
   
2. 18 USC 921(a)(4), emphasis added:
   
   

   (4) The term “destructive device” means—
   
   

   (A)...
   
   (B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.
   
   (C)...​

   
   The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

   
   
3. 18 USC 922(b)(4), emphasis added:
   

   (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
   
   (1)...
   
   (2)...
   
   (3)...
   
   (4) to any person any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity; and....

   
   
4. "Firearm" as defined for the purposes of the NFA, 26 USC 5845(a):
   

   The term “firearm” means (1) ...; (2) ...; (3) ...; (4) ...; (5) ...; (6) ...; (7) ...; and (8) a destructive device....

   
   
5. "Destructive device" as defined for the purposes of the NFA, 26 USC 5845(f), emphasis added:
   

   The term “destructive device” means (1) ....; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) .... The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes....

   
   
6. I suspect that most folks here have at least a passing awareness of the NFA. In general, a firearm covered under the NFA (which as shown above includes a destructive device) may not be transferred without following the NFA formalities, including having an application for transfer approved and generally paying a tax (26 USC 5812). It's also unlawful to receive or possess a firearm (which as shown above includes a destructive device) subject to the NFA unless the NFA formalities are adhered to (26 USC 5861(b), (c), and (d)).

So unless a rifle chambered in .585 Nyati has been found by the Director of ATF to be, "...a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes...." it is a destructive device subject to the NFA, which can therefore only be lawfully possessed under federal law if the NFA formalities have been complied with.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....a counter to the statement "Guns are designed to kill people..." can be "Guns are designed to launch bullets and you choose where to put them."

Are you seriously suggesting that it's possible to effectively argue that a gun isn't a weapon? Do you seriously believe that anyone other than some folks in a subset of people who hang out in gun forums would buy that? It's possible to argue all sorts of things, but just because you can argue it doesn't mean anyone is going to buy your argument.

The fact that a gun can accurately fire a bullet at a high velocity is a core attribute that makes a gun useful as a weapon. And most gun games/target sports test skills which can be related to the ability to proficiently use a gun in the field.

And while some folks here are dancing around a gun being a weapon, other folks are posting things like:

• This:

  ...A disarmed population is, by definition, a population that has completely ceded the power to defend its natural rights to life, liberty, and property against local, state or federal authorities....

  
  
• Or this:

  People talk about the practical uses of semi-automatic weapons like the AR15 for hunting, self-defense, competition, and recreational shooting however the 2nd Amendment protects the right of individuals to own firearms to protect against enemies of the country and in case our own government becomes tyrannical, not hunting, competition, or recreational shooting. ....

  
  
• Or this:

  The purpose of the Second Amendment is not sporting. It exists so the government can not obtain a monopoly of violence over the American people....

Whether you want to think of a gun as a weapon or not, it certainly seems that some people are interested in guns and in furthering the RKBA primarily because of the utility of a gun as a weapon.

 

[AlexanderA]

So unless a rifle chambered in .585 Nyati has been found by the Director of ATF to be, "...a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes...." it is a destructive device subject to the NFA, which can therefore only be lawfully possessed under federal law if the NFA formalities have been complied with.

I take it that this is what's known as an "elephant gun." To legally obtain or possess such a rifle, you apparently have two avenues:
1. Apply to the ATF Technical Branch for a ruling that this is a sporting rifle. That would involve certifying that that, indeed, is its intended use.
2. Failing that, follow the procedures for obtaining a Destructive Device, including a Form 4, fingerprints, photograph, and $200 tax. And wait many months. There may be state laws that control Destructive Devices, as well.

 

[Ru4real]

Are you seriously suggesting that it's possible to effectively argue that a gun isn't a weapon? Do you seriously believe that anyone other than some folks in a subset of people who hang out in gun forums would buy that?

I'm effectively arguing that a guns function is to launch a bullet and that is all. Some people use them as a weapon and some don't. What is a weapon? Maybe a legal definition of weapon will help.

Thank you for the response on the .585; based on the firearm definition in OP, it was what I was expecting.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'm effectively arguing that a guns function is to launch a bullet and that is all....

Well you're arguing that. Whether that argument is effective depends on whether the person to whom the argument is directed accepts it. And if your purpose in making the argument is to blunt pro gun control sentiment, I doubt that you'll have any luck.

Your argument, judging by some of the responses in this thread, seems to resonate with true believers. But have you tried the argument out on anyone who supports gun control? Did your argument cause that person to abandon his support for gun control?

 

[Bagheera]

A firearm is made to protect your freedom.
Defending your life and those you think deserve it or
Taking ur life or those you think deserve it when things are undoubtedly going to the sh..ter
Could be regarded as freedom too.
The real freedom is the choice and firearms do that.
That's also why I treat them with respect.no fear,no facination just respect.
Technically, anything that ignites a powder to send a bullet powerful enough to kill ennemies.

Just my opinion

; )

 

[Zoogster]

I do think the intended purpose was to kill, it was a weapon designed to inflict damage on people or animals.

We have since made it a tool for fun as well and I get plenty of joy sending rounds down range at targets in recreational sports that have nothing to do with harming anything.
It is also great at protecting or defending even when not killing, but only because of its ability to kill.
Just as people still throw Javelins for sport, their purpose was to impale something living.

Because it is capable of being effectively used by young and old, healthy and feeble, it also creates equality. The weak can kill as well as the strong.
Our RKBA also ties it to an individual's ability to defend themselves and to form a common defense, as weapons.


Guns do have utility beyond killing, but not utility that will typically justify their ownership in contrast to the harm they can do. The only thing that justifies their ownership in spite of the harm they can do is the force they can bring to bear as a weapon for good.
In the realm of public opinion your ability to play a game or do something fun won't trump someone else's safety. Firearm uses that are not for positive use of force will not justify their ownership. The ability to own them and then also enjoy recreational activities with them is because they are protected as a weapon not as a recreational toy.
We then get to play games and have fun with these weapons, but only because they are protected weapons.
The RKBA protects them as a weapon.
The less effective they are as a weapon the less in line with the RKBA they are.

 

[Ru4real]

But have you tried the argument out on anyone who supports gun control? Did your argument cause that person to abandon his support for gun control?

I'm surrounded by people that support. So sort of like this forum, pretty much an echo chamber. However this forum provides more scrutiny than my immediate group of family and friends; they trust me, and you, thankfully don't, which is why the critical feedback is so good.

I intend to use the argument as my position, not a reformulated anti argument, like the old "Guns kill people." "No, people kill people." discussion. I understand we formulate arguments to convince others, but in these divided times, talking won't convince anyone, but taking them to the range will and does.

At the range me saying "A guns function is to launch bullets, you choose where to put them." will become abundantly clear to any anti trying to hit a target and probably not doing so well. My hope is to have them associate guns, launching bullets, and hitting paper together.

 

[Ru4real]

A firearm's "purpose" is subjective, and it is not legally relevant. Purpose is in the mind of the owner / possessor. It is not inherent in the firearm itself. Some guns are used for self defense, some for collective defense (military), some for hunting, some for target shooting, and others are just to be looked at (collectibles). All these are "purposes."

AlexA, I know you are a big fan and love, love, love Justice Scalia. Scalia said many, many times that shooters MUST encourage non-shooters to participate in shooting sports so that non-shooters will NOT associate shooting with killing.

You can see from my response to Frank, that is what I do and will continue to do.