KodiakBeer
member
It's the same point. SWAT gets to choose their weapons, and they choose long arms. In my home I get to choose my weapon, and I choose a long arm.
If I'm on the street, I can't choose another weapon so I'm going to use my handgun.
a handgun is only for when you can't get to a long gun for self defense.
- Thread starter cajun47
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It's the same point. SWAT gets to choose their weapons, and they choose long arms. In my home I get to choose my weapon, and I choose a long arm.
If I'm on the street, I can't choose another weapon so I'm going to use my handgun.
22-rimfire
Member
I would suggest you see an alternative and only as a last resort use a firearm. If there is a "war" going on, it's different. Admittedly, you won't be as cool and calm like you might be sitting in your chair in front of the computer talking about scenarios and so forth. Emotions come into play and they may cause you to get in trouble with the law.
ConstitutionCowboy
member
22-rimfire said:
While the law comes in later, I'm sure I'll be dealing with loaded underwear during. It is a for sure big advantage in front of the keyboard to have the clean underwear!
Seriously, these discussions do help you develop a mindset. Mine is to assure a self defense response as opposed to wondering in the heat of the moment what the legal ramifications might be if I were to act responsively. One might get you dead, the other might get you up in front of a jury. I've made my choice.
Woody
22-rimfire
Member
Frankly I can't say WHAT I will do until I'm there in the middle of the situation. My reaction might land me in jail or it might result in me doing nothing and getting hurt or killed. I'll let you know when it happens.
I friend of mine took a couple shots to scare off some armed kids (ghetto kind of thing) the other day. The kids came out of a house shooting and my friend opened up shooting over their heads. The kids dropped their weapons and ran. I told him he'll get in trouble for something like that if he's caught or the wrong things happen. But he feels these bad apples need to be stopped immediately. I agree with him, but that is vigilante stuff. That will get the good guys put in jail or fighting for their freedom in the courts and costing thousands of dollars.
I friend of mine took a couple shots to scare off some armed kids (ghetto kind of thing) the other day. The kids came out of a house shooting and my friend opened up shooting over their heads. The kids dropped their weapons and ran. I told him he'll get in trouble for something like that if he's caught or the wrong things happen. But he feels these bad apples need to be stopped immediately. I agree with him, but that is vigilante stuff. That will get the good guys put in jail or fighting for their freedom in the courts and costing thousands of dollars.
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dgarvin1
Member
Whenever possible, you should have a loaded weapon on your person, pea-shooter or not.
It's better than throwing rocks.
Of course I would like my FAL with a bag full of 30rd mags, but I can't carry that into my local Rite Aid without garnering a ton of unwanted attention....
It's better than throwing rocks.
Of course I would like my FAL with a bag full of 30rd mags, but I can't carry that into my local Rite Aid without garnering a ton of unwanted attention....
mljdeckard
Member
The one who was saying that I keep an SKS in the trunk/behind the seat is me. I look at it this way. If the handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your long gun, it sounds pretty hollow if you don't really have a long gun to run back to. There may be very narrow circumstances where you might actually need it, but remember, there are very narrow circumstances where you would use a gun to defend yourself at all. Just because it's rarely if ever that you will need a gun to defend yourself doesn't mean that we are going to leave them home. So, just because it's rarely if ever that I will be able to use a rifle doesn't mean I won't be glad I had it if I needed it.
As I said before, my work limits how often I can actually do this because I go on and off post a lot. But my lifestyle and circumstances are a bit different than those of many others here. I will frequently run out to the desert just because I feel like it. I have needed to put down injured animals, and I started a thread in here last summer showing where there have been big pot farms busted in lots of wilderness areas I have been to many times. I see no reason at all to limit myself to a handgun.
The example I used before that made me reconsider a trunk rifle was the Trolley Square shootings. It was in the evening, on a weeknight, in a very congested part of Salt Lake City. When EMS was called, the traffic was so bad that very few of them got there in a timely manner at all. If I had been there, I would have made my escape. But pretty much everyone there was stuck and couldn't get out of the block at all, it was jammed up for hours. IF I had escaped to my vehicle, and IF it was obvious that there was still shooting going on inside, and IF it was apparent that the police were nowhere near stopping the shooting, and I decided to go back in to recon and look for an opportunity, I would want more than my handgun to do it. If I had a chance to shoot the bad guy from a distance rather than closing in, wasting time, and putting myself at greater risk, I would certainly prefer to do so. The chance of doing any of this is small, but again, the chance of needing a gun at all is small.
I am also in a position where my soldiers are going to be issued both rifles and pistols in Iraq. Now obviously, we would prefer to carry around pistols on a day-to-day basis. Especially where we have to sleep with them. We are in a support role where if we ever go outside the wire at all it will be with plenty of security, like an infantry platoon or more. But I still give the same emphasis to my soldiers, that if they ever really need to use force, they should do everything they can to make sure it is a rifle. If they don't have a rifle, they need to be covering their retreat to a place where they can get one.
As I said before, my work limits how often I can actually do this because I go on and off post a lot. But my lifestyle and circumstances are a bit different than those of many others here. I will frequently run out to the desert just because I feel like it. I have needed to put down injured animals, and I started a thread in here last summer showing where there have been big pot farms busted in lots of wilderness areas I have been to many times. I see no reason at all to limit myself to a handgun.
The example I used before that made me reconsider a trunk rifle was the Trolley Square shootings. It was in the evening, on a weeknight, in a very congested part of Salt Lake City. When EMS was called, the traffic was so bad that very few of them got there in a timely manner at all. If I had been there, I would have made my escape. But pretty much everyone there was stuck and couldn't get out of the block at all, it was jammed up for hours. IF I had escaped to my vehicle, and IF it was obvious that there was still shooting going on inside, and IF it was apparent that the police were nowhere near stopping the shooting, and I decided to go back in to recon and look for an opportunity, I would want more than my handgun to do it. If I had a chance to shoot the bad guy from a distance rather than closing in, wasting time, and putting myself at greater risk, I would certainly prefer to do so. The chance of doing any of this is small, but again, the chance of needing a gun at all is small.
I am also in a position where my soldiers are going to be issued both rifles and pistols in Iraq. Now obviously, we would prefer to carry around pistols on a day-to-day basis. Especially where we have to sleep with them. We are in a support role where if we ever go outside the wire at all it will be with plenty of security, like an infantry platoon or more. But I still give the same emphasis to my soldiers, that if they ever really need to use force, they should do everything they can to make sure it is a rifle. If they don't have a rifle, they need to be covering their retreat to a place where they can get one.
For HD I'll rely on one of my handguns, or mini 14 folded, since it's pretty compact. Sometimes you can't beat an SBR for HD, and I know people that CC a SBS.
And around here LEO's have an AR between the front seats of their cruisers.
And around here LEO's have an AR between the front seats of their cruisers.
stuckinsocal
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I think that the main reasons for carrying long gun in a vehicle and a handgun on your person are the same as the reasons law enforcement does that.
A handgun is used for immediate threats. If you're in the mall and someone comes in and stars shooting people, that's what your handgun is for. It's impractical and unrealistic to think that you could or should use your handgun to make sure you don't get killed while you're running to your car to get your long gun and go back to face the threat instead of leaving.
A long gun in your car is for when you have a practical and realistic opportunity to get to it. I think that there are realistic situations where simply getting in the car and driving away may not be possible. Outside of home defense (according to some) the long gun is a whole lot more effective than a handgun. If you have the ability to get one, it's usually better, in my opinion, to use it rather than the handgun.
A handgun is used for immediate threats. If you're in the mall and someone comes in and stars shooting people, that's what your handgun is for. It's impractical and unrealistic to think that you could or should use your handgun to make sure you don't get killed while you're running to your car to get your long gun and go back to face the threat instead of leaving.
A long gun in your car is for when you have a practical and realistic opportunity to get to it. I think that there are realistic situations where simply getting in the car and driving away may not be possible. Outside of home defense (according to some) the long gun is a whole lot more effective than a handgun. If you have the ability to get one, it's usually better, in my opinion, to use it rather than the handgun.
mljdeckard
Member
While you pretty much agree with what I am saying, why do you say it is unrealistic to think I should use my handgun to cover my retreat or go back to face the threat? I listed very narrow circumstances. And AGAIN, if we were dealing with what is LIKELY to happen, we wouldn't carry guns at all.
stuckinsocal
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I think you misunderstood what I meant. Basically, if you're in the mall and someone starts shooting people, you can pull your pistol and shoot him. In an active shooter situation where many people are in danger I would be inclined to think that it might be better to go on the offensive instead of only being on the defense.
mljdeckard
Member
Not me. I carry to protect me and mine. The only time I would go OFFENSIVE against an active shooter is when it became apparent that the police were not going to get there in enough time to stop him, my family was already out of danger, and I would only re-enter with extreme caution. A rifle would let me shoot him from much further away.
stuckinsocal
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Same here. But I also see it as my moral obligation to protect others in a situation where their lives are in immediate danger and I have the ability to protect them until the police can.
Here is a similar thread from last year. I think this is the one where mljdeckard discusses his sks usage. Some good arguments made on both sides.
pockets
Member
There is shooting around you, you (and yours) are able to safely retreat to your vehicle.....end of story.
The biggest problem these days, is there are no longer telephone booths handy to change in and out of our superhero costumes when we get back to the car to grab enough gun, then fly back to save the world.
The biggest problem these days, is there are no longer telephone booths handy to change in and out of our superhero costumes when we get back to the car to grab enough gun, then fly back to save the world.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And here I thought we'd found a whole new topic of discussion!
Tacbandit
Member
Quote:
"There is shooting around you, you (and yours) are able to safely retreat to your vehicle.....end of story."
This is true...good point. Avoidance is always the best choice, when possible. But if you cannot retreat, and you're not prepared, it could be the end of the story as well... All the rhetoric of "this is what I would do" is just that... rhetoric. We all try to prepare, but we can never know what may come our way. What's important is that we are as prepared as possible. We can't always have the "bazooka" with us... So we need to at least have a tool that can substitute, with some sufficiency. Most importantly, we need to be familiar and proficient with whatever tool we have with us. If you can't work the "bazooka" properly, it won't help to have a bazooka. If you at least have something you are proficient with, your odds are better. Carry the best you can carry, for whatever situation you might encounter, and
be aware of your surroundings, always... 
Tac
"There is shooting around you, you (and yours) are able to safely retreat to your vehicle.....end of story."
This is true...good point. Avoidance is always the best choice, when possible. But if you cannot retreat, and you're not prepared, it could be the end of the story as well... All the rhetoric of "this is what I would do" is just that... rhetoric. We all try to prepare, but we can never know what may come our way. What's important is that we are as prepared as possible. We can't always have the "bazooka" with us... So we need to at least have a tool that can substitute, with some sufficiency. Most importantly, we need to be familiar and proficient with whatever tool we have with us. If you can't work the "bazooka" properly, it won't help to have a bazooka. If you at least have something you are proficient with, your odds are better. Carry the best you can carry, for whatever situation you might encounter, and
be aware of your surroundings, always... Tac
ConstitutionCowboy
member
Always remember this: The shooter may not be alone.
Woody
Woody
KodiakBeer
member
So, if I'm the victim of a home invasion, I should not use my most effective weapons, but pick up the least effective weapon I have instead? I think your suggested plan may have a flaw in it.
BeerSleeper
Member
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Simple point everyone making SWAT comparisions have missed...
A SWAT raid is a team event, and it's an offensive. Offensive tools/team tactics do not equally apply to defensive/solo situations.
Different strategy and thinking is required. If you don't think so, go get into a one on one basketball game and start passing to your teammate. See how fast you loose.
A SWAT raid is a team event, and it's an offensive. Offensive tools/team tactics do not equally apply to defensive/solo situations.
Different strategy and thinking is required. If you don't think so, go get into a one on one basketball game and start passing to your teammate. See how fast you loose.
Onward Allusion
Member
Depends on the purpose. Not thinking about neighbors or anything like that...
For close quarter indoor defensive work - handguns. For anything outside that has a bit more room - rifle.
For close quarter indoor defensive work - handguns. For anything outside that has a bit more room - rifle.
KodiakBeer
member
The one aspect that applies, is that you choose the most effective weapon you have when you know you're going to a gunfight. That's why street cops carry handguns for everyday use, but when called to an ongoing armed confrontation, they grab the shotguns, the AR's, whatever.
This isn't a viable option for any likely self-defense scenario on the street, but it is in your home, or at least in most homes - if you're living in an apartment or have kids in another room, you may not want to go blazing away with your tactical shorty .308 or whatever. But, in most homes you do have the option to go for something more lethal than a handgun. A short barreled shotgun or small rifle (mini 14/30, M1 carbine) with softpoints gives you an advantage, so why not use it?
mljdeckard
Member
The other aspect, that maybe I didn't emphasize enough, is that just because you can get to your car doesn't mean that you will be able to MOVE your car. In the case of the Trolley Square shooting, all traffic around the event was blocked for hours, first by panic and after by EMS. You could be on a side street parked diagonally against the curb, and have traffic blocking you in to the rear. Of course I would make tracks if I could.
David E
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You can carry a handgun around the house with no trouble. You can stash handguns throughout the house in small, hidden but quickly accessible spaces. You cannot do any of that with a long arm.
The fact is that _I_ can reach a handgun faster than you can reach a long arm.
I agree there is a flaw in the plan...........just not my plan............
mljdeckard
Member
After having had extensive training clearing houses with long guns, I very much prefer using one.
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