A new bullet for the 1860.

[Ugly Sauce]

You may call me crazy, or something. Only 200 grains? (204 with my lead) NO LUBE GROOVES!! Or...hardly...!!
What the...!!??? Well let me explain. Although I think 210 to 220 is kind of an ideal weight, in order to maximize powder capacity, 200 ain't chopped liver. Then I got to thinking: "lube grooves? Since I lube over the bullet, which is more lube than even a Big Lube bullet can hold...who needs stinking lube grooves?" Then another thing occurred to me, that this is a very short bullet due to the flat nose and minimum lube grooves. More powder.

So, this is what I got. I can get 29 grains under it. The LEE 200 maxed out at 27, and that was tight. Wow...two more grains of pixie dust!!! (hey, 4fg in a .44 ain't no joke) Anyhow, with the rebated base it loads better than the LEE, you really can't get it cock-eyed. And even though it rams easily, I think it's getting much more contact with the walls of the cylinder. Feels that way anyhow, and it seems to pop off noticeably harder than the LEE. The pistol feels very powerful.

Are they not purty? 200 (or 204) grains is still light-years ahead of 140 grains.

Now I know you guys don't like lubing over the bullet. I get it. It is a pain for target shooting and plinking. For field carry, I'm sold on it. Here's a pic right after firing. With a stiff lube, way stiffer than Crisco, as you can see there is no mess. The process of lubing is a little messy, and you will get your pinkies greasy, but again for field carry, load up, carry it a lot, and most likely never fire it. If you do, it sure keeps that barrel clean. What I use is Wonder lube 1000 and bee's wax mix, with some candle wax. I can scoop it up with a pop-sickel stick, roll it into a ball, and then press the ball into the chamber. That works pretty good. I've been thinking about making some "balls", and putting them in a tin. Then just take a ball and press it over the chamber. No scoop, no smear. Probably not a good idea in hot weather. !! Even my stiff lube might melt in Arizona or Mexico. North East Washington State? I think it would work. But that is why this bullet works good for me.

The 1860 says: "Thanks for listening". !

 

[Acorn Mush]

Looks interesting. Can you shoot some targets from a bench-rest position and show us if they are as (or more) accurate than good ol' round balls?

Idle minds want to know.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

We shall see. That pistol has never been real accurate. Round ball would certainly beat the group I shot today. But, it was certainly "minute of Wolf", or "Minute of Cougar".

 

[Onty]

Only 200 grains? (204 with my lead) NO LUBE GROOVES!! Or...hardly...!!.. Although I think 210 to 220 is kind of an ideal weight, in order to maximize powder capacity, 200 ain't chopped liver. Then I got to thinking: "lube grooves? Since I lube over the bullet, which is more lube than even a Big Lube bullet can hold...who needs stinking lube grooves?" Then another thing occurred to me, that this is a very short bullet due to the flat nose and minimum lube grooves.

If understood you, "lube over the bullet" means once you press bullet into chamber, lube is applied like this:



I see this OK for a first shot, but what about others, is any problem with lube blown away with gasses coming from the gap?

 

[woodnbow]

View attachment 1129848
You may call me crazy, or something. Only 200 grains? (204 with my lead) NO LUBE GROOVES!! Or...hardly...!!
What the...!!??? Well let me explain. Although I think 210 to 220 is kind of an ideal weight, in order to maximize powder capacity, 200 ain't chopped liver. Then I got to thinking: "lube grooves? Since I lube over the bullet, which is more lube than even a Big Lube bullet can hold...who needs stinking lube grooves?" Then another thing occurred to me, that this is a very short bullet due to the flat nose and minimum lube grooves. More powder.

So, this is what I got. I can get 29 grains under it. The LEE 200 maxed out at 27, and that was tight. Wow...two more grains of pixie dust!!! (hey, 4fg in a .44 ain't no joke) Anyhow, with the rebated base it loads better than the LEE, you really can't get it cock-eyed. And even though it rams easily, I think it's getting much more contact with the walls of the cylinder. Feels that way anyhow, and it seems to pop off noticeably harder than the LEE. The pistol feels very powerful.
View attachment 1129857
Are they not purty? 200 (or 204) grains is still light-years ahead of 140 grains.
View attachment 1129858
Now I know you guys don't like lubing over the bullet. I get it. It is a pain for target shooting and plinking. For field carry, I'm sold on it. Here's a pic right after firing. With a stiff lube, way stiffer than Crisco, as you can see there is no mess. The process of lubing is a little messy, and you will get your pinkies greasy, but again for field carry, load up, carry it a lot, and most likely never fire it. If you do, it sure keeps that barrel clean. What I use is Wonder lube 1000 and bee's wax mix, with some candle wax. I can scoop it up with a pop-sickel stick, roll it into a ball, and then press the ball into the chamber. That works pretty good. I've been thinking about making some "balls", and putting them in a tin. Then just take a ball and press it over the chamber. No scoop, no smear. Probably not a good idea in hot weather. !! Even my stiff lube might melt in Arizona or Mexico. North East Washington State? I think it would work. But that is why this bullet works good for me.

The 1860 says: "Thanks for listening". !

That’s cool! Also, they require a lot less lube than everyone seems to think. Especially when the lube is supercharged with Stihl HP Synthetic. They also have the ability to challenge round ball accuracy. Not quite as easily loaded to that kind of accuracy but it’s doable.

He turned that around pretty quickly huh!?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

He turned that around pretty quickly huh!?

Yep he sure did. I was settled in for the long-wait, and then...SHAZAM! There is was!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

If understood you, "lube over the bullet" means once you press bullet into chamber, lube is applied like this:

View attachment 1129909

I see this OK for a first shot, but what about others, is any problem with lube blown away with gasses coming from the gap?

Okay, yes, exactly, when the bullet is seated, then lube over like that. However, the picture you post is a good example of a gooey lube that will be blown out of the chambers after the first shot. And, leave a gooey mess all over the gun when it is empty. I experienced that the first and last time I tried Crisco.

If you make a much stiffer lube, that is still pliable with one's fingers, you can form it into a ball, and just press that ball over the load. Don't have to smear it on with a stick. A little practice has told me what size ball to make. You can see it's a pretty "clean" application. I use a mix of Wonder Lube 1000, and bee's wax, and a little candle wax. (I can't spell "parrafin" no matter how I try) I suppose candle wax and olive oil would work, but I've never tired that. Perhaps tallow would be good. ? Or bacon grease.

Anyhow, the adjacent chambers retain plenty of lube when firing, and from my previous pic, you can see the gun is quite dry and clean after all six chambers have been fired. Yesterday, no lie, ONE patch cleaned the barrel. Really. The second patch came out clean.

Again, for target practice and plinking, sure, not worth the trouble. Lubed wads more better. For a gun carried in the woods/wilderness/mountains, whatever, carried a lot and shot little, and left loaded for long periods of time, for me it's the bee's knees for sure.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Interesting looks like it would work well. I assume you are using pure lead for those?

As far as tallow I've rendered deer tallow and it works well 50/50 beeswax. It's fairly stiff when cold works very well as a bullet lube. I suppose a person could play with a bit of olive oil to make it a bit more soft for lubing over the bullet.

I've always stayed away from bacon grease and such for fear of the salt that may be present. Especially if a gun may stay loaded for a long while. Plus if rendered properly deer tallow keeps without going rancid. I've heard mutton is just as good but since deer fat is free every deer season it's been my go to.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Interesting looks like it would work well. I assume you are using pure lead for those?

As far as tallow I've rendered deer tallow and it works well 50/50 beeswax. It's fairly stiff when cold works very well as a bullet lube. I suppose a person could play with a bit of olive oil to make it a bit more soft for lubing over the bullet.

I've always stayed away from bacon grease and such for fear of the salt that may be present. Especially if a gun may stay loaded for a long while. Plus if rendered properly deer tallow keeps without going rancid. I've heard mutton is just as good but since deer fat is free every deer season it's been my go to.

Truth on the bacon grease. A million years ago, I used bacon grease for patch lube. It worked fine, but my idea at the time, when I really wanted to get a black bear really bad, was that maybe it would attract one. I'd even pour out the bacon grease from breakfast on the ground in hopes it would bring one in. It never did. That was before they re-introduced Grizz into the area. Would not be such a great idea now. Bringing a Grizz into camp would not be good, and if you shoot one, your troubles have just begun. When the game department gets done with you, one might wish that they had been eaten by the grizz instead. !!!

 

[crstrode]

If you make a much stiffer lube, that is still pliable with one's fingers, you can form it into a ball, and just press that ball over the load. Don't have to smear it on with a stick.

My homebrew lube is a mixture of paraffin, Crisco, and beeswax. I've been using a stick to poke it into the holes for years - never thought about rolling a pill! Thanks for the tip.

 

[44 Dave]

Remember if you are talking Brit paraffin is kerosene.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Remember if you are talking Brit paraffin is kerosene.

Didn't know that. I use canning paraffin. (hey! I spelled it!) "Brit Paraffin"? Is it solid or liquid? If it is kerosene...? Or do you mean "Brit Paraffin" is another term for kerosene?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

My homebrew lube is a mixture of paraffin, Crisco, and beeswax. I've been using a stick to poke it into the holes for years - never thought about rolling a pill! Thanks for the tip.

I think it will work. Again...really hot summer day...might tend to melt a bit, but would still be usable. ? I've never had it melt in the revolver, on very hot sunny days where the holster and pistol get pretty warm. ? We'll see! Today, 29 degrees and windy...not a problem!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Interesting looks like it would work well. I assume you are using pure lead for those?

Yes, and I have some really nice dead-soft lead that came from an X-ray lab that was dismantled. Got a bunch, but wish I had got more. Comes out of all my molds on the heavy side.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I done pre-made some "lube-balls", put them in a cap-tin, and throwed 'em in me shooting bag. We'll see how they fare jostling around in the bag over time.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Those guys look great man! Ill bet with some 4f swiss they'll reach out and touch something real quick like!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Those guys look great man! Ill bet with some 4f swiss they'll reach out and touch something real quick like!

I can get 29 grains of 4fg under them. It certainly feels hot and snappy. Will have to see how many 2X4's they'll go through. I use to have some 1X6" that I cut up into squares, and would get them soaked, then stack them up and see how many different bullets and loads would go through. That was with the .44mag, .357, .41 mag, .45 Colt, etc. Should do that again with the cap-N-ball revolvers. Could be interesting.

 

[Navy Six 2]

That looks like a "ACCURATE MOLDS" design you posted. I have a similar 45-204F mold that I frequently use. It is still close fit in an unmodified Open Top Colt but shoots well. I do notice a modest increase in recoil compared to round ball to the extent that the loading lever will sometimes drop on the Dragoons and Walkers while a round ball never causes that. Otherwise a nice design.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That looks like a "ACCURATE MOLDS" design you posted. I have a similar 45-204F mold that I frequently use. It is still close fit in an unmodified Open Top Colt but shoots well. I do notice a modest increase in recoil compared to round ball to the extent that the loading lever will sometimes drop on the Dragoons and Walkers while a round ball never causes that. Otherwise a nice design.

Right, Accurate Molds. I was originally going to get a more conventional bullet in the 210-220 grain range, but realized that since I lube over the bullet, I could have a shorter bullet without big lube grooves, increasing powder capacity. And a 204 grain bullet is a substantial increase in weight over a 140 grain ball. (which of course is an increase in recoil) Yes I think it's an excellent design, if one lubes over the bullet. Otherwise, it does not carry much lube, and wouldn't be a good choice with just a lubed wad underneath it.

This 1860 I have, and have had forever, suffered from the dropping latch for years. I would find ways to fix it, but then after a year or so it would drop. My main problem was the stud pulling out of the dove tail. Once that dove-tail gets bunged up....

I even sent it to a gunsmith in California. It was fine for a long time until I got a chain-fire, which pulled the stud out again, and sent the front sight flying, never to be found again. !!!! At that point I was so frustrated that I tried brazing the stud into the barrel. Yep...no more accuracy. Then I cut the barrel to 6" to restore accuracy, achieved a very nice dove tail, and silver soldered it in. It's been reliable ever since. I think the loading lever having less mass also helps. Lately I had Jack (Jackrabbit57) lay hands on it, and now it's my favorite pistol.

 

[Navy Six 2]

I was torn between which of the two molds to pick. Yours(45 201G) has a slightly shorter( about .025) length and mine(45 204F) has a slightly longer heel which I reasoned might be easier on my fumbled fingers attempt at loading. Since the loading port area is so restricted on the Colts(even the Walker at which I was surprised) I probably should have gone with the mold you picked. However, since the heel is so long on mine it just may sit a little deeper initially in the cylinder. None of this matters in the Remingtons and Rogers & Spencers as the bullets clear easily. I also agree with your reasoning about the lube grooves. If you lube over the bullets you can fit a bit more powder and still be OK. Your gun looks good with that 6" barrel.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I was torn between which of the two molds to pick. Yours(45 201G) has a slightly shorter( about .025) length and mine(45 204F) has a slightly longer heel which I reasoned might be easier on my fumbled fingers attempt at loading. Since the loading port area is so restricted on the Colts(even the Walker at which I was surprised) I probably should have gone with the mold you picked. However, since the heel is so long on mine it just may sit a little deeper initially in the cylinder. None of this matters in the Remingtons and Rogers & Spencers as the bullets clear easily. I also agree with your reasoning about the lube grooves. If you lube over the bullets you can fit a bit more powder and still be OK. Your gun looks good with that 6" barrel.

Yep, my Remington New Model Army in Navy caliber sure has lots of room, as does a Rogers & Spencer. The 201G is easy to load, and has enough heel so it does not cock or tip. The LEE 200 grain bullet takes a little more fiddling and jiggling, and does not always want to go down straight. Shoots fine though.

In the field, my practice is to load the pistol with the bullet, but my reloads are ball, and the flask has a 38 grain spout on it. My theory is that if I ever had to fire any rounds out of the pistol, a reload with the ball is much faster, even though the 201G loads nice. And, a ball over 38 grains of 4fg pixie dust ain't exactly chopped liver either. !!!

Thank you, the pistol handles and feels very nice with the 6". Of course, the 7.5-8" barrel (I forget) is also a very nice handling pistol. I don't know if anything beats the 1860 in that regard, regardless of barrel length. Although, the Remington feels really nice in hand. My 1862 Pocket Police, for me, the small size just does not feel great, but I'm getting more used to it. For me, I find that a 6" barreled pistol is much more comfortable on the belt, than one with a longer barrel.