A new low for TC

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Bitswap

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I go to the range today with my pet loads for my TC .308. The same ones that put five shots through the same hole at 100 yards. The TC has it's quirks and I was trying to understand them a bit better.

This is a TC factory Prohunter stock, TC factory Endore barrel. The only mod done was a trigger job.

Freshly cleaned with Wipe-Out, the TC performs as expected: sub moa groups for the first five shots after pausing two minutes between. While letting it foul through 15 rounds (foul test), the expected 2-4 moa appears. A typhical TC pattern: 1.5" low, 1" high, 1.5" high, 1.5" high, 1" low, repeat. Vertical strings were defined by this rifle.

Rapid fire with this rifle will result in each shot being 1" above the other. After 15 shots I tested this, and yes, the results were as expected.... got to love a rifle that gives 5 moa with rapid fire.

After that, I decide to try something new, clean with Hoppes 9, Shooter's choice copper cleaner, back to hoppes and lube. Usually I only do the hoppes and lube.

First shot was 9.3" high, second was 8.7" high, third was 4.5" high. With accuracy like this, it's no wonder every benchrest shooter in the world is using the highly touted TC.

This has got to be a new low. Why do I even try with this 'rifle'?

Five more shots and the TC finally settled down to it's normal 2-4" moa. Why am I wasting my time with this....
 
Have you talked to TC about this? My experience is that they stand behind their products and will make it right with the customer.
 
I'll try. But the TC was designed to be a single shot rifle... That means ONE or TWO shots sub moa. It is doing this. I'm pushing it's limits a bit and doubt TC would (or could) fix this based on the design of the unit. But, I will try.

I'm beginning to think when TC said moa spec, they ment for one round.
 
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What are you talking about? You bash the rifle... yet earlier in the post you say this:
Freshly cleaned with Wipe-Out, the TC performs as expected: sub moa groups for the first five shots
Click to expand...
So just keep it clean with Wipe-Out every five shots and there you go. Most guys would be perfectly happy with that.
 
Geroge, I concur. I know what I need to do to make this rifle shoot accuratly and it's only from these test that I discover what to avoid. But do you think testing to see what it will do or react as 'unreasonable'?

I've developed loads for many rifles and never seen a rifle as sloppy as this. It was 55 degrees out and 10% humidity today. How will it react when its 120 and 45? who knows.

Do you personally think a 9.5" high shot after cleaning is acceptable or more importantly dependable?

My goal it to be able to make accurate shots out to 400 yards, if a variance in my cleaning technique makes that big a difference, I'd have to suspect the quality of this firearm.

As with most things, the more hype, the more BS. And TC has plenty of hype.

If any TC rep wants to comment and say this is beyond the specifications of the rifle, I'd be happy to hear it.
 
WEG, great minds think alike.

I too thought it was a scope/mounting issue when I first started developing ocw rounds for this. I had my gunsmith put on two lepolds and finally ended up with a nikon bushmaster. That was before this test. We determined it wasn't the scope.

My smith thinks it's the overall design of the drop-open action and to deal with it or modify using after-market parts, which insidently, voids the warrantee.

This is evidenced by the fact it's only in the vertical travel, horizontal is excellent, always.
 
rbernie, I actually ordered one of those last Tuesday. The parts in the mail.

I've seen that site WEG. I built one of those depth guages which helps a lot with headspace. Lots of good stuff on that site.

The oversized hindge pin will be ordered if the above pin doesn't help. That along with a heavier locking bolt spring.

I'm not saying this can't be fixed.
 
MY .223 T/C Contender will only shoot 100yd. MOA groups with Remington 62gr. BTHP Match ammo. Nothing else comes close and no one else makes 62 gr. Match ammo.
I am thrilled that there is one factory load that works that well in my .223!
Other loads and brands vary from 1 1/2" to 4" groups.

Since that is what it likes that is what it gets!
I'm keeping my .223 Contender!
 
Greenhunter, your not getting any vertical stringing at all? Even when shooting rapid fire? There may be hope for this.

Deer Hunter, I can usually tell when I flinch. When I was developing loads for this, most groups were moa, very tight, but that was after cleaning every set (six rounds). Granted I wasn't using a machine rest so the possibility is there. There have been several sets, under the correct circumstances, that this TC would put the best varmint gun to shame... usually the first five shots. I'll give you that I flinched on the 9.5" high shot just for the sake of arguement, but that's one heck of a flinch and think I would have noticed it. Good point though.
 
My first thought was a scope issue as well. Either that or your handloads are to blame. I would check the scope and p/u a box of factory ammo.
 
tbtrout, good call. I did try federal premium match, black hills and remingtons. Same scheam. This was early on before I developed the pet load. The pet load is about 25 fts higher than the federals. That was the time I was thinking my scope was loose and went to the smith to check it out.

I did have someone else shoot this rifle at the range one week. He was shooting very tight groups with a remington 22-250 at 200 yards. He and his friend was having the same problem.
 
hi bitswap,, my 223 TC was just the opposite of yours,,,,mine would not shoot clean,,,,if i cleaned the barrel it would on the money put the first round 4" high,, you could bet on it,,it took 4 rounds to settle in and back to zero,,,,amazingly each round of the four was about half of the distance,,,second shot was around 2"high,,,,but windage was always good,,,

this is what i found after sending the gun back to TC for a check out,,, and they did rebuild the frame,,,new springs and such,,,

while i was putting the rifle back together i noticed that the forearm was not centered,,,so i really got to looking at the thing and when i screwed the forearm it put it in a bind,,,,and it was rubbing on the frame

so when everything was latched up tight the barrel had some built in stress

i got a big rat tail file to clear the barrel channel and i also cleared the tang that was rubbing the frame(where it covered the hinge pin)

guess you know what happened ,,,,,,,problem went away

i'm not saying that you have this problem but i would look it over really well to make sure you don't have any pressure on the barrel

after i found this on my rifle i had my wife kick me in the arse(should have found this way before i did)

my .02

ocharry
 
ocharry, that clicks with what I've seen. The tc likes a fouled barrel. When testing, I only used hoppes 9 and didn't seem to effect the vertical stringing much. From the patches, it was only cleaning carbon, not copper.

My TC is back at the smiths. Getting a spring put in and my new 'hex' hindge pin came in. Saw on a site the poor man's pillar mount using washers. Also got a kit from bellmetcs. If the hex pin doesn't work, in goes bell's.

Have you tried rapid fire with your TC? Be interested to see if mine is unique here.
 
Bitswap,

I too have a T/C Encore that likes to string. I've traced my problem to the fancy new Pro-Hunter forend and the ahem, force, of the .45-70 cartridge in a 20" carbine. My forend rubs the frame now, having warped nicely from barrel heat and recoil/gripping. T/C said send it in for replacement, but I may just rat-tail file it and take 'er out tomorrow.

Good luck with yours! May it get straightened out! Mine will shoot 3 300gr .45-cal slugs into one hole at 50 yards, and under 2" at 100 when it's shooting right, so there is hope. (That's with the iron sights they issue on the Katahdin barrels, BTW.)
 
my experience with TC has also been very hit and miss.

I have to encore pistol barrels that perform well

and a muzzle loader barrel that throws buckshot with everything i try in it. After sending it back to TC they insisted it shot 1 in groups at 50 yards with a particular load

tried the load- and got buckshot.

I'm skeptical of how much work they actually do when you send it in.
 
bitswap,, i did do some heat testing to see how or where it would go when it warmed up,,,seems going through my notes here the warmer it got the worse,,tried keeping it cool(5 min. between shots) and after the barrel was fouled it did pretty good,,, and if i cleaned after every shot(what a pain) it would group,,,,but not as good as a dirty barrel(i can tell you i was pulling my hair OUT) never had one be so stubborn or hard to deal with

after sending the gun back to TC and they told me there was nothing wrong with the barrel and the action i left it sitting on the bench for a week or so,,,and then i thought i am not going to let this thing whip me

so when i was putting the stock back on i looked it over really well and found nothing,,,,but when i was putting the forearm onto the barrel,,it was like the holes were drilled out of parallel with the channel or the channel was crooked,,(TC didn't have the wood) all i know for sure is it was putting a lot of pressure on the barrel when it was snugged up and that's when the LIGHT BULB came on(big DUH here),,,,so now the forearm is resting on the lugs and not the barrel or frame,, i guess free floated

it likes the hornady 53gr. match hp,,,,and the sierra 55gr soft point second,,,,dime to nickle size groups at 100 pretty consistent(finally)

i like this little gun,,, works good on the truck seat,,easy to carry and it will take a coyote and other vermin rather well,,,,,i really thought i was going to go down the road for a while there(the barrel anyway)

i have and e arther brown 22 barrel for it also and it is a tack driver

look that thing over really well and look for signs of binding or pressure and you may get lucky like i did and find the diamond

let me know what you do to get her going,, i would like to know

ocharry
 
Ocharry, my TC is at the smith's right now but talking to some experts I think I know what's going on when it gets hot.

I was sizing my headspace to 0.002 from the breach when at room temperature... yes I know I should be less than 0.001". As the barrel heats up, it expands more along the length than the diameter. Next thing you know is your binding the case against the breach, or as they call it the firing pin bushing which will rear it's ugly head as vertical stringing.

They also said that pillar mounting the foreend is 'manditory' which clicks with what you saw.

I have no doubt we'll figure this out. Just got to find it's quirks. The heat expansion theory makes sence to me and why some recommend you always FL size the cases.

Glad to hear yours is doing well.
 
TC problems

First off take a lot of big long deep breaths of fresh air,Dont get mad, ur problesm are small.easy fixes,i have to say,its in the foreend,you'll see its out of wack,the forend is to tight and its givinng the barrel a push up,I bet if u loosen the screws you'll see a dif,Now try to take and slide a piece of paper between the forend and barrel,free float is what you're looking for here,i have a few TC barrels,and dif forends, But I use isnt the TC company,I use one from a company called Bullberry,do your a favor,and check them out,I have a barrel form them along with there own forend,And if u ever decide to buy one of there barrels, they give you 1/2 moa. or your money back,I can take my 12 in barrel and shoot less then a inch at 100 yards,thy have great stuff and they stand behind them, bullberry.com good luck i hope it gets right for you.
 
mycarz,

I'm not mad, not at all. I bought the TC to see what it could do. Bluebarry is definatly on my list for my next barrel if I get one. I'm analyzing this rifle. Probably doing things to it that no one else would. To date, I've never seen a bad review of this product which 'off the shelf' definatly has problems. Why these variances weren't reported by reviewers is beyond me.

This isn't like your normal bolt action rifle. You don't size the case as you would those either. A learning process I guess. I'd very much like to buy a few barrels for this but before that happens I need to confirm the design.

Would it be more cost-effective to get several bolt actions vs several barrels at the expense of accuracy? That is my question.

My expectations are probably too high. I expect moa accuracy at 200 yards. I'll take it at 100 yards for a 'cheap' rifle if it is consistant. For me, consistency is everything... probably from my benchrest days.
 
i have 4 barrels of the TC, and bullberry are just super, i had a problem with my 30 hariret,its 12 inI was going on a bear hunt,so i started to reload right away,i have a ole reloading booklet that T/C would send with your new T/C barrel,then i had a 10 in, in 221, it listed loads that worke d in the T/C,like 222,221,44,7mm tcu, not to much after that but at least,it was som.ething to get your baseline, so anyhow i had lee dies, started my loading i start off with a dummy round,smoke the case to the tip of the bullet,then carefully load the case in the barrel,then close,you just want it sit on the shoulder,not the rim,allmost every case i loaded was tough to fit,so i went to the range i shoot,i breaK THE action open,and i had to fight tio get the empty shell out,thinking maybe it was hot,too hot,so i tried another load i was working up,same thing,,i ended up bending the extractor,man i was pissed ,,Thinking what did I get my self into, I went home pulled all the bullets dumpd the powder,resized,I smoked the shells again, good fit,some droped right in,some i had to push,,Oh what is going on.I'm leaving in 4 days for this Bearhunt,and this wont work,I called the bullberry people, he asked what the loads were,i told him,he said send me all your stuff, barrel,shot and un shot cases Dies,send it all over nite,so I did,1 day later on my porch is the same box i had sent out,Well i open it,I find a nice hand wrote note,Im sending you a set of dies for that gun,Your dies are made for the T/C Barrel,FROM T/C that wont size down to my secs that i use on all my barrels,,try them, see if they work for you,if they do,I can have them for 15 bucks,well i coulnt get to my bench fast enough,,sized a dozzen cases zipped outto the range, ever shell droped right in,no pushing,no slamming the gun together it closed like it shold have,I went on to shoot half in groups out to 100 yards,So that made my day,and i been using that barrel and dies ever since,But I would at least call on a forend,but call and talk to them, I was thinking going with a 7 mm bullberry,,they look easy enough to create,They make a special hanger for there forends,even my 12 in, has 2 screws, that came with the special hanger and forarm,I got the plan one,and finished it my self , but his system does work,1/2 moa or your money back T/C wont work with yu,i been down that road with almost all there stuff, good luck with what ever way you go
 
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