A Soldier's Load, and His Lack of Mobility

[Lebben-B]

It's got to be easier to locate a local supply of horseshoes than HMMV or 5-ton tires.

Carebear, that's what ferriers are for. If the mule needs a shoe and none are commercially available or the unit is out, a shoe can be made from scrap metal.

Mules are not unique subjects for combat loss. How often have you seen the burning hulk of a motor vehicle? That's lost, too

I agree with these statements. Which is why mules aren't the answer. Because when the mule goes down, the items it's carrying are transferred to other mules and what can't be loaded onto other mules won't be left behind - it'll be given to Joe Snuffy to hump, so now we're back at square one with overloaded infantrymen.

Mike

 

[Vern Humphrey]

[ducking in]I ran out of tires once on a CAX, well the whole Bn did, but I got the last one.

It's got to be easier to locate a local supply of horseshoes than HMMV or 5-ton tires.

I thought we still had a mule school in the Corps or Army, I seem to remember reading a Leatherneck article about it. But that could be 14 years ago.[/ducking out]

In the Old Army the platoon leaders carried a few shoes, nails and basic farrier gear in their bedrolls.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Carebear, that's what ferriers are for. If the mule needs a shoe and none are commercially available or the unit is out, a shoe can be made from scrap metal.

Actually, virtually everyone uses keg shoes nowadays -- and there are many new developments in emergency shoeing. No need to make shoes from scrap.

I agree with these statements. Which is why mules aren't the answer. Because when the mule goes down, the items it's carrying are transferred to other mules and what can't be loaded onto other mules won't be left behind - it'll be given to Joe Snuffy to hump, so now we're back at square one with overloaded infantrymen.

Mike

And when a 5-ton truck breaks down, Joe Snuffy humps that load, too.

 

[carebear]

Carebear, that's what ferriers are for. If the mule needs a shoe and none are commercially available or the unit is out, a shoe can be made from scrap metal.



I agree with these statements. Which is why mules aren't the answer. Because when the mule goes down, the items it's carrying are transferred to other mules and what can't be loaded onto other mules won't be left behind - it'll be given to Joe Snuffy to hump, so now we're back at square one with overloaded infantrymen.

Mike

If a truck goes down the same thing will happen if you can't get another truck. Only there are fewer trucks typically and they are more heavily laden so, even spread loaded, the weight may be greater than can be possibly carried by the same infantry element. It's easier to spread a single mule load of 300 pounds out to 50 guys than 5 tons from one truck.

 

[Lebben-B]

Earlier in the thread, I came up with 2 mules per squad, 8 per platoon. On paper there's 37 men in the platoon, counting the PL. In reality, about 25-30, because of casualties, leaves, in-theater passes, etc. So there aren't 50 hooahs to carry it, only about half that number.

Mike

 

[carebear]

Okay.

Just pointing out, no matter the final number, it's easier to spread load a smaller load than a larger. Since the loss of one mule is only a loss of 1/8 the carrying capacity versus, using the same element size, probably their only truck or one of 2 or 3 highback HMMV's, it'd be easier to spread the partial load and keep going without abandoning it.

Depends on how well-trucked you start out I guess.

I'm not vehement about this, I just like the idea of mule trains.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I go elk hunting with a fellow who was in the 10th Mountain Division in the '50s -- he likes to tell how they marched from Fort Carson to Camp Hale with pack mules. That's about a week over some rugged terrain without any resupply.

 

[trav58]

USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, CA has a mule packers course, the only one in the DoD. Here's a Marine Corps News article about it from 2002, the course was still up and running as of this past summer: Beast of Burden

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you're a Marine, you surely must have read John W. Thomason. Thomason, who served in WWI and the Banana Wars retired before WWII and wrote such things as "And a Few Marines." He has some vivid descriptions of pack mules in Nicaragua and other places the Marines fought in his day.

 

[Sam]

I love this thread.
When your 5 ton breaks bad enough to leave behind, it's gone, a "damaged" mule on the other hand can add to the available supplies. Pappy said they could be pretty tasty if you cook 'em right.

Sam

 

[bcochran]

mobility

Comments on mobility.

1. US Army 1968. Company had to run up hill about 3 miles with just web gear and rifles. 14 made it.

2. 1970s. Ages 30 - 31. With late wife. Walked places like Iran, Afghanistan, Golden Triangle. We shared gear. Her pack - 21 pounds. My pack - 19 pounds. And yeah, we walked out through the Khyber Pass. If this is what was manageable after 6 months of walking, what does a computer jockey do who has not walked 5 miles continuously on any one day within the last year?

3. 2005. Age 59. Had to give up stick and knife fighting because of shoulder injuries a couple of years ago. Have to give up martial arts because of being on morphine for 7 weeks this year because of injuries suffered - it will take me about 6 months to be where I was 4 months ago. After a while, you use your bean and preposition. All I care about is what works for me!

In a little known mission in the 1960s, a mobility concept paid off in Laos. Laos was about to be overrun. A force the size of 1/2 of a platoon was assembled, both indigenous and US. The concept was to plow ahead and be resupplied every day by helicopter and wounded to be evacuated daily. The mobility was so incredible that within 3 weeks, the Red strategy was set back about 1 year. Contrast that with mandated 30 day sweeps, 85 pounds of gear and 3 days of rations.

The role of fatigue is greatly underappreciated. I get careless, off guard and take short cuts. Could get a person killed.

 

[Long Ranger]

More please. This thread is great.

And here I thought (really) grunts are just idiots behind a trigger.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And here I thought (really) grunts are just idiots behind a trigger.

But some of us have a sort of low cunning.

A man who can devise a way to make a reliable pull/release fuze from a PRC 77 battery, a length of telephone wire, an M16 clip, and a length of fishing line may not be a rocket scientist, but he has to have something between his ears.

 

[NMshooter]

When you are outnumbered and surrounded by your own bureaucrats you have to outsmart them; after all, you are not allowed to shoot them.

 

[carebear]

Also, most of this creativity is driven by pure, unadulterated self-interest, the best dang motivator in the world.

If it makes an inherently dangerous job safer, and an inherently tough job easier, be sure some Snuffy somewhere is figuring out how to do it.

That, of course, assumes his NCO's are alert and keeping him from executing the grunt's standing Plan Alpha: hide somewhere and goof off.

 

[Rpriestlyjr]

Sorry to walk in so late, but I have to toot my horn here a bit. I was a paratrooper for 10+ yrs. and don't have much for old pains. I'm no Rambo, just 5'-10", 170 lbs. and wasn't some pogue from the rear. Just a measly Heavy Junk Sapper.
True, people are different in all aspects, but I think alot of the snivvelin' about weight carried is just that...snivvelin'.
And what they publish for the basic combat load is a lie anyway. We all had certain jobs to do, and had to suck it all up in order to complete our missions, for it is in essence a soldier's ultimate job to suffer and die for his country. Proper, continuous, and hard training is the only way to ease the suffering and lessen the chances of dying, and much of that training should be physical and challenging.
I do have to appreciate the tough NCO's I had as a young trooper. Although the training sucked, (I weighed my LBE once @45 lbs.) it worked. Simple little thing like a combat jump makes you appreciate the pain you went through to be able to deal with the pain you are experiencing. Although it was 'Operation Turn Around' (Haiti), it was pure pain all the way. I was weighed getting off of the plane at 360 lbs. The only personal gear I had a t-shirt, poncho, 3 MRE's, 4 Qts. water, a couple pairs of socks, some smokes and Cope. Everything else was a bullet, battery, bomb, tool, radio, battery, NVG, battery, claymore, c-4, flak vest, 203 vest, and more batteries. I think I had more batteries than bullets. And they were going to toss rollerblades in to boot (no kidding.....and Marty had a mountain bike). Alice packs were falling apart whenever people moved. And don't forget the T-10 & reserve. Everyone wondered how we were going to function with all of this stuff, let alone get out of the plane. But when it hits the fan, you can't think about the pain. The only way to deal with the pain is to be motivated enough to not think about it.
Whew, nuff said. Sorry.

 

[Long Ranger]

I salute each of you.

All kidding aside, I'm very proud of what each of you have done, and given! No easy row to hoe for sure.

I'm former Army with an aviation MOS. It's after I read about your experiences such as these, that I know how easy I had it.

Thanks again, and again!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When you are outnumbered and surrounded by your own bureaucrats you have to outsmart them; after all, you are not allowed to shoot them.

And it's a damn' shame, too.

 

[NMshooter]

After re-reading carebear's comment on small loads being easier to redistribute I wonder if going to increasingly larger cargo vehicles might have been a mistake?

Would we be better off with vehicles similar to the old jeep, 1 ton, and 2 1/2 ton trucks, at least for light infantry?

Clearly mech units have different needs, including larger quantities of supplies.

Not that I disagree with the mule train, that might work too.

For that matter, half the "cavalry" in WW1 was bicycle mounted, and they could move fast. Not on the battlefield of course, but on those long marches in the early part of the war.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

After re-reading carebear's comment on small loads being easier to redistribute I wonder if going to increasingly larger cargo vehicles might have been a mistake?

Would we be better off with vehicles similar to the old jeep, 1 ton, and 2 1/2 ton trucks, at least for light infantry?

Smaller vehicles means more vehicles to carry the same amount of cargo. That means more maintenance and more personnel to drive and maintain the vehicles. Those extra personnel will come out of the infantry.

 

[carebear]

Also the cube on a 4 wheeled vehicle doesn't change enough to really jam many more into a transport, especially a RORO. Even though a jeep is smaller, you can only fit so many on a deck, especially because they can't be stacked efficiently.

Add in the additional POL and you have a logistical nightmare even before counting noses.

 

[NMshooter]

Though I can think of a few reasons why it would not work, it would be pretty neat if the advance team for a unit could just whip out the IMPAC card and local purchase vehicles.

Certain units already seem to do this.

But how does one locally purchase a mule?

I can see it now, purchasing officer walking around with a sack of gold coins...

The USMC seems to be purchasing a few jeeps for a mobile mortar system that is Osprey portable. Wonder how that will work out. For that matter, I have seen an actual Osprey flying overhead, and it did not even fall out of the sky!

Guess those bicycles also take up space and weight when not being used.

We always seem to get back to the point of "I can carry 100 pounds of lightweight equipment.", just like Roman legionnaires did.

 

[roo_ster]

My unit was dissatisfied with the HMMWV and had some special built long wheel base land rovers (RSOV) built with cages, hardpoints, etc (even a medic version). I guess the idea was to maximize what could be rolled off a C130.

They were not built for logistics but could be used as such, after the initial airfield siezure.

FWIW, it was amazing what a driver could do with one of those RSOVs. I gained a lot of respect for that vehicle and the land rover it was based on.

My unit also used dirt bikes to increase mobility right off the C130.

This solution would not work for large units or the Army as a whole, I expect.

-------------

The mule train idea is one I like and I see it as workable, with a couple of modifications:
1. First & foremost, do not bring any mules in-country from CONUS. US mules would be used for training in the US.
2. Bring in tack, harness, etc, and the trained GI mule skinner with a wad of cash/gold...to buy local pack animals.

Maybe the best local pack animals are not mules, maybe they are...llamas? Steer? Whatever. Use what is best adapted to the locality.

Oh, and bring back the Pack Howitzer. The idea of a disassembled howitzer traveling on a live animal is just neat.

 

[igor]

Maybe the best local pack animals are not mules, maybe they are...llamas? Steer? Whatever. Use what is best adapted to the locality.

Reindeer are workable here... low maintenance, low training requirements... We got sleighs for all crew-served weapons but I have to admit that the way to go during peace time was to drag them around ourselves. Oh, the hilarity of the 145-kg recoilless AT rifle sliding about amidst five men on steepening downhill

About carrying payload, I'm trained in lugging the ITOW/TOW2 ATM on a fire team's backs as the SOP. You take it apart, tie the main components onto custom-made rucksack frames, and off you go. Pity the poor grunt with the twin missile canisters, that's over 50 kg on top of personal gear. And our personal ammo is heavy as it's 7,62x39.

On skis it's tolerable but come summertime, oh me.

 

[Lebben-B]

Smaller vehicles means more vehicles to carry the same amount of cargo. That means more maintenance and more personnel to drive and maintain the vehicles. Those extra personnel will come out of the infantry.

On this, we agree. More specifically, the drivers will be pulled from the infantry platoon. With an effective strength of 25-30, to lose even one man has a big impact.

The dirt bikes mentioned by Jfruser got me to thinking about ATVs. The learning curve for the operator is shallow, meaning the vehicle can be assigned to the squad and any squad member can drive it if necessary. (It does not remove the need for operator classes though) They're small and easily portable into theater. Some of the larger ones can be rigged with a simple pintle mount for a SAW/M240.

But it still comes down to an added POL/maintenance strain to the unit, which an ATV per squad would definitely do.

I disagree with using mules for training and then using local animals once in theater. Going from mules to burros/donkeys/ponies might not be a big jump for our GI muleskinner, but going from mules to llamas, say, might be. Also the tack needed for an equine animal might not fit or be adaptable to other pack animals. If we're going to go with mules, then stay with mules.

Mike